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Thread: Town requires my credentials to teach?!

  1. #1
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    Town requires my credentials to teach?!

    One of my NRA basic pistol course students says his town (Groton) requires a copy of my credentials to process HIS application. Is this legal for the town to require?

    They have my student's training certificate with my NRA instructor name and info on it already.
    Why do they need MY certificate to instruct??

    I can easily provide it....but they shouldn't be asking my students for this.
    Are they just throwing obstacles into the process because they feel like it??

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uskrusader View Post
    One of my NRA basic pistol course students says his town (Groton) requires a copy of my credentials to process HIS application. Is this legal for the town to require?

    They have my student's training certificate with my NRA instructor name and info on it already.
    Why do they need MY certificate to instruct??

    I can easily provide it....but they shouldn't be asking my students for this.
    Are they just throwing obstacles into the process because they feel like it??
    There is nothing so indicated on the application.
    http://www.ct.gov/dps/lib/dps/specia.../dps-799-c.pdf

    Permits in Connecticut are first issued by the town police department, which conducts the background checks and fingerprinting. Each town is different in its willingness to approve permits, and some towns create their own requirements that go well beyond the State requirements. Meeting these town-specified requests (such as letters of reference, pictures, or an essay on why you want to have a permit to carry) does not have to be accomplished in order to get a permit. The town has 8 weeks to approve the permit. If it doesn’t, the resident can appeal the ruling to the Connecticut Board of Firearms Permit Examiners, whom must grant the permit unless there is a specific reason the individual should be denied.
    http://www.enotes.com/topic/Gun_laws...29#Connecticut

    Perhaps someone else can cite the specific statute.

    It would appear to me that the town is just trying to be difficult.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    As the teacher, I would gather together the statutes and either go down there or call them and ask them what the problem seems to be.

    Record it. Get names. Etc.
    Last edited by Rich B; 11-10-2010 at 01:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uskrusader View Post
    One of my NRA basic pistol course students says his town (Groton) requires a copy of my credentials to process HIS application. Is this legal for the town to require?

    They have my student's training certificate with my NRA instructor name and info on it already.
    Why do they need MY certificate to instruct??

    I can easily provide it....but they shouldn't be asking my students for this.
    Are they just throwing obstacles into the process because they feel like it??
    There is no legal ground to stand on regarding providing credentials. If there is a situation of fraud, where an applicant has provided false or fraudalent credietials regarding training received, there could potentially be an investigation into the issuing signature. However, this is a theoretical circumstance...

    It has been made pretty clear to me that Guns in CT are a right freqeuently denied or abused, by local town politics or opinions. Unfortunately, the best advise I could offer would be for you to ask you student to request the order in writing, so as to begin to build a case of civil right violations.

  5. #5
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Sounds fishy to me.

    I've read the statutes and it seems the town is just trying to create another hurdle.

    I'd ask to speak to someone above the officer responsible for taking applications. In Middletown, it wasn't even an officer but an administrative assistant that she clearly didn't understand the laws...... at all.

    If there is a further problem, I'd go up to police chief than the mayor. Then, you have to go through the BFPE and such.

    As Rich noted, get names, dates, times, create a log. If this individual is doing this on their own, it is a good way to troubleshoot poor training in the town.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Its not in the statutes but it is normal. When I got my credentials as an instructor my instructor suggested I include a photocopy of my little NRA instructor card in with the course completion certificate that I give my students.

    I include it because most of my students aren't taking my course to make a political stand. They want their permit. Its my job to give them what they need to get it. And that includes a photocopy of my NRA card.

    I'm not saying you guys aren't right. But its not the instructors place to lead this charge. If the applicant wants to make a stand, fine, support him/her. Its their application. But if the applicant just wants his permit, give him the documentation. By playing hardball you are just making things more difficult for the applicant. Again, if he's ok with that, fine. But if he's not, why make it more difficult for him.

    For what its worth, I tell every group of students that if their town has any extra-legal requirements and they are willing to refuse to comply with and truly take it to the mat. i.e. submit via fedex, go to the Board of Firearms Permit Examiners, etc.

    I tell them this will probably delay their permit for a year, but if they do, I will refund every cent they paid me for the class. I haven't had anyone take me up on it.

    Don
    Last edited by dcmdon; 11-11-2010 at 12:53 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Its my job to give them what they need to get it. And that includes a photocopy of my NRA card.
    I'm with you up to that point.

    It's my job to teach the course, give them proper documentation of successfully completing the course. I give a letter on the day of the class, with all my contact information, my NRA number, etc.

    I follow up by mailing a certificate (the nice NRA version) to them in the mail all nice and neat.

    Granted, I haven't had this pop up yet, but I disagree about making a stand.

    Let me get this straight, we comply with the law, the PD wants something that isn't covered by the law, and it's my obligation to give it to them? That is the whole madness that led to law enforcement thinking that open carrying was illegal in the first place.

    I'd rather exhaust all efforts with the city/town and give them a chance to comply, rather than bend to someone behind a desk that might not be following the rules.

    Then again, with my permit issues in Middletown, I learned that they actually DID NOT KNOW THE LAW!

    It's not about leading a fight, it's about complying with the statutes. The law enforcement community needs to follow the law as much (if not more) than we do!

    But, we are indeed free to disagree,

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    There is certainly an obligation to assist your customer that I don't deny at all.

    However, that is why I think the instructor should go to the PD, click on his voice recorder and make firm and knowledgeable inquiries into why this is an issue.

    This is also why I am looking into how to properly organize a least a unit of us for when something like this happens, there are people who can go help out with the situation that may know more about the law, or may be more willing to be firm with the police.

    I don't know the OP, but I know it can be difficult to be firm with a PD when you are the principle actor. Plus, it is not in the interest of his business to make waves and bother PDs.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Its not in the statutes but it is normal. When I got my credentials as an instructor my instructor suggested I include a photocopy of my little NRA instructor card in with the course completion certificate that I give my students.

    I include it because most of my students aren't taking my course to make a political stand. They want their permit. Its my job to give them what they need to get it. And that includes a photocopy of my NRA card.

    I'm not saying you guys aren't right. But its not the instructors place to lead this charge. If the applicant wants to make a stand, fine, support him/her. Its their application. But if the applicant just wants his permit, give him the documentation. By playing hardball you are just making things more difficult for the applicant. Again, if he's ok with that, fine. But if he's not, why make it more difficult for him.

    For what its worth, I tell every group of students that if their town has any extra-legal requirements and they are willing to refuse to comply with and truly take it to the mat. i.e. submit via fedex, go to the Board of Firearms Permit Examiners, etc.

    I tell them this will probably delay their permit for a year, but if they do, I will refund every cent they paid me for the class. I haven't had anyone take me up on it.

    Don
    Apparently it is easier to give in than to fix it. This is how we lost our rights and privileges to begin with - a little at a time. Would you take the same position if you had to accompany each applicant and swear that the document/certificate was genuine? Or proved 4 copies of the certificate. Or provide social security number. Or provide self-addressed return envelope. Or only get finger printing done within a very narrow time frame each week. BTW - all but the first have been tried somewhere already.

    Allowing a known defect in the system/procedure and not working to correct it is tantamount to accepting (even endorsing) the extra-legal "requirements." If one extra-legal stipulation is made, why not ten or different ones in each municipality? The system places certain requirements on the applicant. They are spelled out for reasons of uniformity/consistency.

    As you say, an applicant not acquiescing to the additional demands faces a potentially long wait to acquire their permit. What is the risk for an instructor or group of instructors to work to get the procedure right? Not doing so shows a lack of moral responsibility IMHO - you recognize that part of a procedure is illegal, yet you cooperate in facilitating it.

    You do have a dog in this fight.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    There is certainly an obligation to assist your customer that I don't deny at all.

    However, that is why I think the instructor should go to the PD, click on his voice recorder and make firm and knowledgeable inquiries into why this is an issue.

    This is also why I am looking into how to properly organize a least a unit of us for when something like this happens, there are people who can go help out with the situation that may know more about the law, or may be more willing to be firm with the police.

    I don't know the OP, but I know it can be difficult to be firm with a PD when you are the principle actor. Plus, it is not in the interest of his business to make waves and bother PDs.
    Rich - you have some great suggestions. I will not include my credentials from this point forward. If I have a client have a problem I will appear at the PD in person in a timely manner. If I can't get there in a timely manner I will provide the certs to the client.

    Feel free to count me in on the group you are organizing. Like I said in reference to my sobriety checkpoint hunting, I've spent a fair amount of time dealing with aggressive uninformed LEOs. I'm currently unemployed and have time to give.

    Grapeshot - its not your fight to fight. its the applicants. If they want to fight it, I'm with them 100% to support them. Tue if they just want their permit, I'm not going to slow up their application if they don't want to stand up for their rights. I tell students that they are not just paying me to show them how to shoot, but to also help them through the process. I teach small classes, and provide good service.

    Imagine if you wanted to become a truck driver. You went to CDL school and when applying for a CDL the state asked for a copy of the instuctor's CDL. You called him and his reply was "Its not required by law, I'm not giving it to you". You'd be rip s&*t pissed. I'd be. I paid him money to get the CDL, give me the stuff they requested. As an instructor its a customer service issue. As an applicant its a rights issue. As such its the applicant's choice.

    Don
    Last edited by dcmdon; 11-11-2010 at 03:36 PM.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Rich - you have some great suggestions. I will not include my credentials from this point forward. If I have a client have a problem I will appear at the PD in person in a timely manner. If I can't get there in a timely manner I will provide the certs to the client.

    Feel free to count me in on the group you are organizing. Like I said in reference to my sobriety checkpoint hunting, I've spent a fair amount of time dealing with aggressive uninformed LEOs. I'm currently unemployed and have time to give.

    Grapeshot - its not your fight to fight. its the applicants. If they want to fight it, I'm with them 100% to support them. Tue if they just want their permit, I'm not going to slow up their application if they don't want to stand up for their rights. I tell students that they are not just paying me to show them how to shoot, but to also help them through the process. I teach small classes, and provide good service.

    Imagine if you wanted to become a truck driver. You went to CDL school and when applying for a CDL the state asked for a copy of the instuctor's CDL. You called him and his reply was "Its not required by law, I'm not giving it to you". You'd be rip s&*t pissed. I'd be. I paid him money to get the CDL, give me the stuff they requested. As an instructor its a customer service issue. As an applicant its a rights issue. As such its the applicant's choice.

    Don
    Never said nor intended to imply that you should in any way "slow up the process" or cause/force a student to be left hanging in their quest to get a permit. What I intended to indicate is that you could contribute to solving the problem. Obviously from the rest of your post, you seem willing to get involved with doing that.

    I am not applying for a permit after taking a class from you so I understand my lack of standing, as it were, on the issue; however, it is my choice to be involved, assist and/or cause any and all laws/rules/extra-legal requests to be improved when and where I find them and am able. That said with a smile on my face.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Group hug!

    I think we are in basic agreement on the issue. I just want to see problems resolved or at least openly discussed. Just caving in does NOTHING to help the situation.

    For the record, I view my job as an instructor is to give them the NRA course, as outlined by the NRA - to a T. Answer questions on the legal issues they may find based on knowledge I've acquired. I don't see it as my job to get them their permit. My job is to fulfill the permit requirement, and that is certification that they completed the course.

    I would, however, go down to the PD and try to fix the issue either way. They have my instructor number already and that can be verified through the NRA if they aren't too damn lazy.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    I think one thing that would help this issue more than any single instructor putting there creds on the course completion form is the flippin nra actually informing the folks signing up to be teachers of the laws in this state and each state they offer the classes to become an "NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR". If all the nra instructors knew the law and taught the law we would have a much different class of permit holders in this state. More people would feel comfortable exercising the rkba in this state the way we can and more people would exercise there rights when it comes to authorities and there obtuse demands to scare the uneducated people.

    This is in know way meant to discredit the teachers/instructors on this site. You are the exception to this statement. I wish my instructor had taught me the things I have learned from this and other gun sites in the last couple years.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stacks04 View Post
    I think one thing that would help this issue more than any single instructor putting there creds on the course completion form is the flippin nra actually informing the folks signing up to be teachers of the laws in this state and each state they offer the classes to become an "NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR". If all the nra instructors knew the law and taught the law we would have a much different class of permit holders in this state. More people would feel comfortable exercising the rkba in this state the way we can and more people would exercise there rights when it comes to authorities and there obtuse demands to scare the uneducated people.

    This is in know way meant to discredit the teachers/instructors on this site. You are the exception to this statement. I wish my instructor had taught me the things I have learned from this and other gun sites in the last couple years.
    Think that this is too hard on the NRA and the instructors. There is NO way in the class time allotted to teach All of the pertinent statute and case laws. Every class I have given or attended includes the advice that it is up to the individual to know the law.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stacks04 View Post
    I think one thing that would help this issue more than any single instructor putting there creds on the course completion form is the flippin nra actually informing the folks signing up to be teachers of the laws in this state and each state they offer the classes to become an "NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR". If all the nra instructors knew the law and taught the law we would have a much different class of permit holders in this state. More people would feel comfortable exercising the rkba in this state the way we can and more people would exercise there rights when it comes to authorities and there obtuse demands to scare the uneducated people.

    This is in know way meant to discredit the teachers/instructors on this site. You are the exception to this statement. I wish my instructor had taught me the things I have learned from this and other gun sites in the last couple years.
    The NRA doesn't want us talking about the law. In fact in one of their fundamentals of defensive shooting. (can't remember if its "inside the home" or "outside the home") you are expected to hire a lawyer to discuss this with the class. I've never bothered with this class. Its crap. It seems to have been designed to exist just so the NRA can say they have it. In addition to the lawyer requirement is the requirement that you not shoot at humanoid targets. So you're teaching a defensive class shooting at nice round bulls eye targets. No thanks.

    Don

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Couldn't agree with you any more Don.

    I have them bring their town application with them and help out and I have a handout with the BFPE site information and have them go from there. If they have questions after the class, I'm available to help, but I definitely don't want to make this an issue of teaching the law.

    We already have a large amount of instructors teaching that open carry is not legal in CT..... can you imagine the rest of the laws!

    Maybe we can use the "zomboid" targets!!!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  17. #17
    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    I have had to provide a copy of my Instructor ID card showing the expiration date to Groton on numerous occasions. I have spoken with Claire in records and it has been explained to me that they just want to make sure the person signing off on the training is currently a valid instructor. While I agree that they should verify the instructor has the current qualifications to provide the NRA training the way they go about it is pretty backwards. I have had to fax my credentials to her no less than 5 times, once for every student,in fact I once had to do it two days in a row for two different students. I asked her why and she stated they put a copy in the applicants file. I also informed her that she could verify credentials by visiting: https://nra.org/training/instructorlogin.aspx and enter the instructor's ID Number and zip code, who better to verify credentials are active than the NRA....obviously they find it easier to put the burden on the instructor.
    Last edited by brk913; 11-15-2010 at 08:42 AM.

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    brk
    you bring up another thing I was also told by my instructor instructor. He told me to proide a copy of my card, NOT the cert ificate I got from the NRA. The certificate does not have an expiration date, the card does.

    Don

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    Instructor Problems

    For those that are not aware, here is how I solved the problem.

    I authored a course of instruction, submitted it to DPS and it was approved.

    I provide my students with a two sided letter with Successfuly Course Competion on one side and the following letter on the other.

    It does not expire and makes life much more simple.


    STATE POLICE
    STATE OF CONNECTICUT
    DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
    CONNECTICUT STATE POLICE
    SPECIAL LICENSING & FIREARMS UNIT
    1111
    Country Club Road
    Middletown, CT 06457



    January 8, 2009

    Mr. Edward Peruta
    38 Parish Road
    Rocky Hill, CT 06067
    Dear Mr. Peruta:

    The Special Licensing and Firearms Unit has conducted a review of the
    "Connecticut Pistol & Revolver Permit Safety Course" lesson plan that you submitted for
    approval.

    The lesson plan provided currently meets the minimum requirements established
    by the Department of Public Safety as referenced in Connecticut General Statute §29-
    28(b).

    Should you require any further assistance please feel free to contact me directly
    at (860) 685-8003.

    Sincerely,

    Sergeant Douglas A. Hall
    Executive Officer
    Special Licensing and Firearms Unit


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Think that this is too hard on the NRA and the instructors. There is NO way in the class time allotted to teach All of the pertinent statute and case laws. Every class I have given or attended includes the advice that it is up to the individual to know the law.
    I understand taking time to teach gun laws as applies to carry, use of, or what to to thereafter, but teaching the law with regard to the permitting process would not take that long. Maybe 15 minutes
    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    The NRA doesn't want us talking about the law. In fact in one of their fundamentals of defensive shooting. (can't remember if its "inside the home" or "outside the home") you are expected to hire a lawyer to discuss this with the class. I've never bothered with this class. Its crap. It seems to have been designed to exist just so the NRA can say they have it. In addition to the lawyer requirement is the requirement that you not shoot at humanoid targets. So you're teaching a defensive class shooting at nice round bulls eye targets. No thanks.

    Don
    Thats fine that the nra doesnt want law classes being taught. Simply teaching about the permit process of which this class is part of would not take long but would have grand affect on educating the public about the process in which they are about the go through. Although an attorney generals clarification of the laws would have greater affect on how the locals apply said state laws to their resident.
    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    Couldn't agree with you any more Don.

    I have them bring their town application with them and help out and I have a handout with the BFPE site information and have them go from there. If they have questions after the class, I'm available to help, but I definitely don't want to make this an issue of teaching the law.

    We already have a large amount of instructors teaching that open carry is not legal in CT..... can you imagine the rest of the laws!

    Maybe we can use the "zomboid" targets!!!

    Jonathan
    I agree with the teaching of the wrong laws especially the open carry stuff, but that was my original point to have the instructors learn the proper state laws for the state they are going to be certified in so they wont pass on mis information to the public going in for their permits.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by stacks04 View Post
    I think one thing that would help this issue more than any single instructor putting there creds on the course completion form is the flippin nra actually informing the folks signing up to be teachers of the laws in this state and each state they offer the classes to become an "NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR". If all the nra instructors knew the law and taught the law we would have a much different class of permit holders in this state. More people would feel comfortable exercising the rkba in this state the way we can and more people would exercise there rights when it comes to authorities and there obtuse demands to scare the uneducated people.

    This is in know way meant to discredit the teachers/instructors on this site. You are the exception to this statement. I wish my instructor had taught me the things I have learned from this and other gun sites in the last couple years.
    Its a basic pistol cpourse, not a legal studies course. The purpose of the course is to teach a student to safely & responsibly handle & shoot a pistol, nothing more.
    I do if asked mention things I know to be true regarding carry in this state but am under no responsability to do so. theres a big difference between firearms instruction and legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leverdude View Post
    Its a basic pistol cpourse, not a legal studies course. The purpose of the course is to teach a student to safely & responsibly handle & shoot a pistol, nothing more.
    I do if asked mention things I know to be true regarding carry in this state but am under no responsability to do so. theres a big difference between firearms instruction and legal advice.
    You missed the point I was trying to make. I fully understand that it is a firearms safety course, but you guys have a direct impact on people getting the permit they are after. I dont think it is any where near offering legal advice to inform the people that nothing but the money and safety course is required as paperwork to get the locals to sign off on the fingerprints and the local part of the permit process.

    Like I stated before, it is the persons own responsibility to learn the laws of there own state regarding firearms and how they intend to use them, not the safety instructors, but since some of you instructors are being forced to offer more certification it is also affecting you guys that the locals are stepping over the line. The more people know about the laws and the permit process here the better they are and the more pressure that people will put on the locals to come back to reality and step off their proverbial high horse.

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    Stacks,
    I agree with you.

    To me its a customer service issue. I am ethically bound to provide the students with enough information and skill to go out and safely improve their skills on their own. In the aviation world a private pilot, single engine land certificate is called a "license to learn" for just that reason.

    However, I Choose to also provide a service that facilitates getting the form filled out. It can be a scary proposition to a new shooter applicant. Five minutes of my time may save him an hour of angst. So I sit down with applicants and we fill out the form together. Its no big deal.

    I also use a check list I got from a local PD that does a great job of making sure nothing is forgotten as far as checks, signatures, etc.

    Don
    Last edited by dcmdon; 11-16-2010 at 02:03 PM.

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    Thats cool Don, I was going say that this could be a niche market for someone with some time, a permit process course

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stacks04 View Post
    Thats cool Don, I was going say that this could be a niche market for someone with some time, a permit process course
    But who will certify the instructors? Each county?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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