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Thread: Letter to my legislature

  1. #1
    Regular Member Beretta-m9's Avatar
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    Letter to my legislature

    Hi, I would like to take part in writing and speaking with the local legislatures but to be honest im no scholar and fear I may just make a fool of myself or the cause, I wish to see the repeal of 941.23, 167.31, 948.605, 941.235, 941.237 and 29.089 as I feel they are in direct conflict with my ability to protect myself and my family. I am suppose to have the right to protect myself at all times but these laws are violating that, can someone help me write up something I can email to my local Senator, Senator Dale Schultz. Or I can write it if someone would proof read it. I will post what i come up with when im done, thanks for any help in this matter.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    This is being discussed on a couple of other threads. Most of us have agreed to focus on repealing 941.23, and ONLY deal with that ONE issue for now, so we don't muddy the waters. CC is the most important issue, and the others will come along later, as the new wave of people CCing runs into the restrictions we deal with while OCing.

    Nik had a post with a list of points you could pull from to write your letter - certainly don't have to use all of them! I'll try to attach the letter I wrote my legislators (note spelling)... it got kinda long, so you might want to trim out a few points.

    I'd be willing to proof / edit / make suggestions on your letter if you want.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    This is a copy of the letter I sent to my legislators. Fortunately both are republicans. There are some of you that will disagree with some of my points, but I have never been known to follow the Judas goat. I remember the little old lady exclaiming as she watched a parade of soldiers "Look my boy is the only one in step".
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This message is longer than generally recommended but it addresses an issue I am very concerned with and hope you will do me the honor of reading it.

    A new legislature takes office in January 2011. Wisconsin will be in the enviable position of having a Republican controlled, Assembly, Republican controlled Senate and a Republican governor. This past November 2010 the people have spoken. Politics is no longer a given career for politicians. The people have found that they are again in control. The people listened to the political platforms of the parties an accepted the very challenging platform put together by the Republican party. One of the planks of the platform was the establishment of legislation to allow Wisconsin people the right to carry arms for personal protection. Of course, Article I section 25 of the Wisconsin constitution already does so. “The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose”. Short, to the point with no room for ambiguity. Unfortunately there are skeptics that refuse to acknowledge the strength of the Wisconsin constitution.

    Rumor among the gun rights group is that members of the Assembly are poised to submit legislation for right to carry concealed firearms during the next session of the legislature. In all likelihood the same persons and associations will be pushing that legislation as sponsored the onerous Personal Protection Acts of the early years of 2000. Acts that were vetoed by Governor Doyle much to the relief of the gun rights grass roots organizations. Organizations that fear that the rumored legislation expected in 2011 will be but a carbon copy of those Acts. The PPA’s of which I speak were so filled with concessions and compromise to the other party to buy votes made the bills virtually worthless. It is hoped that now that the same party has control of the Assembly, Senate and Governorship that more careful attention will be paid to the contents of any new legislation.

    Following are some points I would like you to consider when you become involved in the carry of firearms legislation.

    - The right to keep and bear arms amendment in our constitution is short, to the point and unambiguous. The people have the constitutional right to keep and bear arms, period. The whole of the Wisconsin government is pledged to protect that right. There are other states that do not have a right to keep and bear arms amendment in their state constitution. States in which carry of firearms is a state regulated privilege and not a constitutional right. Those that would like to enact concealed carry legislation would like to mirror the legislation of those states. Wisconsin never has and should never be a copy cat state.

    - There is no mention in the constitutional amendment as to manner of carry. It does not say The people have the right to carry visible arms. It does not say the People have the right to carry concealed arms. The presumption is that the people have the constitutional right to carry arms. Had the 1998 legislature intended to regulate the manner of carry in the amendment it would have so stated.

    -ss941.23, known as the concealed carry law, is an infringement on the rights given by Art I sec25. It reads “Only a peace officer shall go armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon”. The Jackson county District attorney, the Clark county circuit court and at least three members of the Wisconsin Supreme Court have stated that it is their opinion that under the umbrella of our RKBA amendment ss941.23 is unconstitutional. The supreme court justices’ opinions were stated in the concur/dissent section of State v. Hamdan. Justice Patrick Crooks puts it most plain.

    -The presumption of the unconstitutionality of ss941.23 suggests a fast and inexpensive solution to the concealed carry dilemma. Repeal it. Make Art I sec 25 mean what it says. Doing so will put no additional burden on law enforcement time and budgets, cost no taxpayer money, won’t use up valuable legislative time needed to address more pressing state problems and it won’t put additional laws on the books that only inconvenience law-abiding citizens with no statistical effect of preventing carry of concealed weapons by criminals.

    -It is expected some type of mandated training will be required in the proposed legislation. Training that plays only to the coffers of those that instruct the training and with a significant cost to the student. A cost that puts a concealed carry permit out of financial reach of a number of low income people. People that have the fundamental constitutional right to carry arms for security and/or defense but will be unable to do so because of legislative financial discrimination. People who because of their income generally live in areas where they are the most vulnerable to crime violence and would most benefit from the right to carry arms for personal protection. They will see a constitutional fundamental right morphed into a state regulated privilege.

    - There is no need for mandated training in order to exercise the rights given by the right to keep and bear arms amendment. That in itself is unconstitutional. Wisconsin already has a firearms training regimen. Anyone born since Jan 1 of 1973 is required to complete a firearms safety course before they can participate in the sport of hunting. If the deer hunter count put out by the DNR is of any value that means nearly 700,000 residents already have firearms safety training. The very low ratio of gun accidents to numbers of hunters is evidence in itself that the training is effective.

    -In the aftermath of the SCOTUS opinions in Heller and McDonald any new gun control legislation proposed in the states will be under the watchful eye of the federal constitution. Failure to abide can lead a state into timely and costly litigation. Something most states can ill afford. The simple solution is to repeal s941.23 and avoid that fishbowl.

    Suggestion:

    In August 2010 Arizona recognized the peoples right to keep and bear arms for personal protection in that state. It passed legislation to change Arizona from a shall-issue concealed carry state to a choice of carry state. It joined the states of Alaska and Vermont. If the Wisconsin legislature lives up to the promise of our state constitution Wisconsin can become the next member of that group. I think most gun rights advocates would be glad to accept legislation such as Arizona has enacted and I recommend that be given your most serious consideration.

    Some legislatures may disregard the words of the constitution and ally to their personal fears that unqualified persons will be running around carrying concealed weapons. Of course unqualified persons are already running around with concealed weapons, they are called criminals. Too put those legislators at ease I think most gun owners would accept a low fee validation process. The process would validate that the holder is not prohibited by state and federal law from possessing a firearm. I view that with some caution. It does amount to a type of registration but on the other hand it would serve the purpose of putting opponents at ease. It could also serve as a facilitation of reciprocity with other states concerning the issue of interstate carry of firearms for personal protection.

    Those persons that will be presenting and lobbying for conceal carry firearm legislation this coming session will be very committed to their task. I suspect many of them were involved in the failed PPA’s I mentioned earlier and are determined to change that failure to victory. When they put pressure on you to support their proposal I hope that you will consider the information I presented in this letter.
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    Too put those legislators at ease I think most gun owners would accept a low fee validation process. The process would validate that the holder is not prohibited by state and federal law from possessing a firearm. I view that with some caution. It does amount to a type of registration but on the other hand it would serve the purpose of putting opponents at ease. It could also serve as a facilitation of reciprocity with other states concerning the issue of interstate carry of firearms for personal protection. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/QUOTE]

    I think your letter is outstanding. Although the bolded area above kind of scares me, I understand your reasoning for the underlined portion.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper View Post
    Too put those legislators at ease I think most gun owners would accept a low fee validation process. The process would validate that the holder is not prohibited by state and federal law from possessing a firearm. I view that with some caution. It does amount to a type of registration but on the other hand it would serve the purpose of putting opponents at ease
    . It could also serve as a facilitation of reciprocity with other states concerning the issue of interstate carry of firearms for personal protection. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think your letter is outstanding. Although the bolded area above kind of scares me, I understand your reasoning for the underlined portion.
    Agreed. Background check (4473) already verifies someone is not a felon.
    Last edited by protias; 11-11-2010 at 09:40 AM.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    And for street credibility of no status crime convictions, the feds already have voluntary background investigation programs. For us living in the north and near the 100 mile no-rights zone, NEXUS costs $50 and a trip to the border for the interview, finger printing and retina scan. The NEXUS card is, and will be, good for a number of purposes.

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    Protias you are correct. the 4473 form does ascertain that a person is not a felon but you forget a couple of points. First background checks for handgun purchases are processed by the Wisconsin Department of Justice using form number DJ-LE-FH2 as required by state statute 175.35, not by the FBI via form 4473. Second only sales that are processed through a licensed firearm dealer undergo the FBI or Wisconsin DoJ background check, private sales between Wisconsin residents require no paperwork or background check. Finally Many people already own firearms and are not in the market to purchase another one.

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    I wonder

    I wonder if we could get in contact with Susanna Hupp if she would help us in our cause.
    She is very experienced in dealing with legislators being a former legislator herself.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Protias you are correct. the 4473 form does ascertain that a person is not a felon but you forget a couple of points. First background checks for handgun purchases are processed by the Wisconsin Department of Justice using form number DJ-LE-FH2 as required by state statute 175.35, not by the FBI via form 4473. Second only sales that are processed through a licensed firearm dealer undergo the FBI or Wisconsin DoJ background check, private sales between Wisconsin residents require no paperwork or background check. Finally Many people already own firearms and are not in the market to purchase another one.
    Thank you for clearing that up. I was in a rush at the time of my post as I had an interview this morning, which by the way, I got the job.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Protias:
    Congratulations on getting the job. I wish you well in it.

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    I received a response to my letter to my legislatore. This response is from my Assembly representative. If you need names PM me.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thank you for your informative email. I appreciate you bringing your thoughts regarding this most important issue to my attention.

    It is safe to say that everything is on the table when it comes to a concealed carry bill. I have heard that as many as four bills will be drafted regarding this important issue. Please be assured that any bill that we do take up will be provided a fair and open public hearing and be given full consideration.

    A concealed carry bill will not be the first piece of legislation to move forward. It is of our utmost importance to get our economy back on track and to provide Wisconsin businesses the tools to begin hiring new workers to put our workforce back to work. I am hopeful that this upcoming legislature will be able to set a legislative calendar that will be designed to address the most pressing issues our state faces, including conceal and carry.

    Again thank you for your email. If you should have any further questions or comments regarding this or any other state government issues, please do not hesitate to contact me. It is a pleasure serving you in the State Assembly.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  12. #12
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Post A letter sent to my newly-elected representative on November 3rd

    I copied much of this from another forum member's letter and I can't remember who... my bad...

    To: Representative Amy Loudenbeck,


    Congratulations on your decisive victory in the 45th District, my district. In addition, congratulations on having a new Republican Governor who can now help with some much needed reforms.

    I voted both for you and Governor Walker.

    I am writing you to urge you to pursue and support legislation that will bring Wisconsin gun laws into agreement with our Constitution and the will of the people.

    1. Repeal Wisconsin Statute 941.23, the concealed carry law. This particular law was passed in the 1800's and has been shown to be in violation of Wisconsin's Article 1, Section 25 of the Constitution, which was passed in 1998. There have been several recent rulings to support this. Judge Jon Counsel, the Circuit Judge in Clark County has ruled it unconstitutional. District Attorney Fox has issued a memo declaring it is unenforceable in Jackson County. http://www.wisconsinappeals.net/wp-c...0/Schultz1.pdf http://www.co.jackson.wi.us/html/dis...%20Chicago.pdf

    2. Repeal 167.31, vehicle carry of a loaded firearm.

    3. Repeal 941.235, firearms in public buildings

    4. Repeal 941.237, firearms where alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption

    5. Repeal 941.24, prohibition of switch blades.

    Items 2-5 have been deemed unconstitutional in the Jackson County DA's memo as outlined above.

    The effect of these changes would be to legalize unlicensed carry of defensive weapons by law-abiding Wisconsin citizens. Of course, as you know, the Wisconsin Republican platform was changed this year to support unlicensed open and concealed carry.

    The tsunami that is the Republican takeover in Wisconsin happened because we the people are tired of being taxed and regulated to death. To implement a licensed concealed carry system would require the expense of additional staff both at the state and county level for administration as well as onerous fees for licensing and mandatory training.

    AK, AZ and VT have no licensing and training requirement for both open and concealed carry and there have not been any negative results. UT is also considering doing this in 2011 as well.

    Here are some additional points which speak for themselves:

    • Governor Walker has already gone on record as willing to sign a simple repeal of 941.23
    • 74% of the residents of this state in a STATEWIDE referendum in 1998 voted the right to carry (article 1 sec 25) into our state constitution, so carry of defensive weapons is a VERY popular political position.
    • 48 states allow concealed carry
    • It is already legal for law-abiding citizens to carry openly in Wisconsin with no permit and no training and 1000's are doing so safely every day. Public safety would not be affected by these people putting on a jacket when it's cold and concealing their weapon.
    • 29 other states allow residents to carry without a permit.
    • Other states allow all law-abiding citizens to carry in the manner of their choosing without any permit (VT, Alaska, and now AZ)
    • The TREND is moving towards more and more states allowing law abiding residents to carry in the manner of their choosing with no permit and no mandatory training.
    • A permit system will fly in the face of smaller government by requiring more government employees/resources to administer a permit system, yet the permit system will be ignored by criminals.
    • A permit fee would be a tax on our Constitutional right to carry that would be a hardship on low-income residents who deserve the same right to self-defense as anyone else.
    • Future anti-rights legislatures could easily raise permit fee's through a simple budget bill to exorbitant levels to effectively stifle the right to carry concealed. History shows us that legislatures change and rights once secured are put on the chopping block. PLEASE protect the law-abiding citizens of Wisconsin as best as you can by NOT leaving a trap-door for future less freedom-minded legislatures to use to deny the right to carry.
    • Recent US Supreme Court decisions have found the right to carry to be a FUNDAMENTAL right. Being a fundamental right, law abiding citizens should not have to register with the government to exercise that right.

    In closing, I would just point out that this initiative would match up perfectly with your stated goals of,

    • Limiting the size and scope of government
    • Simplifying regulatory and tax policy
    • Putting people first

    Thank you very much for your consideration in this matter,

    Representative Loudenbeck,
    Congratulations on your decisive victory in the 45th District, my district. In addition, congratulations on having a new Republican Governor who can now help with some much needed reforms.

    I voted both for you and Governor Walker.

    I am writing you to urge you to pursue and support legislation that will bring Wisconsin gun laws into agreement with our Constitution and the will of the people.

    1. Repeal Wisconsin Statute 941.23, the concealed carry law. This particular law was passed in the 1800's and has been shown to be in violation of Wisconsin's Article 1, Section 25 of the Constitution, which was passed in 1998. There have been several recent rulings to support this. Judge Jon Counsel, the Circuit Judge in Clark County has ruled it unconstitutional. District Attorney Fox has issued a memo declaring it is unenforceable in Jackson County. http://www.wisconsinappeals.net/wp-c...0/Schultz1.pdf http://www.co.jackson.wi.us/html/dis...%20Chicago.pdf

    2. Repeal 167.31, vehicle carry of a loaded firearm.

    3. Repeal 941.235, firearms in public buildings

    4. Repeal 941.237, firearms where alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption

    5. Repeal 941.24, prohibition of switch blades.

    Items 2-5 have been deemed unconstitutional in the Jackson County DA's memo as outlined above.

    The effect of these changes would be to legalize unlicensed carry of defensive weapons by law-abiding Wisconsin citizens. Of course, as you know, the Wisconsin Republican platform was changed this year to support unlicensed open and concealed carry.

    The tsunami that is the Republican takeover in Wisconsin happened because we the people are tired of being taxed and regulated to death. To implement a licensed concealed carry system would require the expense of additional staff both at the state and county level for administration as well as onerous fees for licensing and mandatory training.

    AK, AZ and VT have no licensing and training requirement for both open and concealed carry and there have not been any negative results. UT is also considering doing this in 2011 as well.

    Here are some additional points which speak for themselves:

    • Governor Walker has already gone on record as willing to sign a simple repeal of 941.23
    • 74% of the residents of this state in a STATEWIDE referendum in 1998 voted the right to carry (article 1 sec 25) into our state constitution, so carry of defensive weapons is a VERY popular political position.
    • 48 states allow concealed carry
    • It is already legal for law-abiding citizens to carry openly in Wisconsin with no permit and no training and 1000's are doing so safely every day. Public safety would not be affected by these people putting on a jacket when it's cold and concealing their weapon.
    • 29 other states allow residents to carry without a permit.
    • Other states allow all law-abiding citizens to carry in the manner of their choosing without any permit (VT, Alaska, and now AZ)
    • The TREND is moving towards more and more states allowing law abiding residents to carry in the manner of their choosing with no permit and no mandatory training.
    • A permit system will fly in the face of smaller government by requiring more government employees/resources to administer a permit system, yet the permit system will be ignored by criminals.
    • A permit fee would be a tax on our Constitutional right to carry that would be a hardship on low-income residents who deserve the same right to self-defense as anyone else.
    • Future anti-rights legislatures could easily raise permit fee's through a simple budget bill to exorbitant levels to effectively stifle the right to carry concealed. History shows us that legislatures change and rights once secured are put on the chopping block. PLEASE protect the law-abiding citizens of Wisconsin as best as you can by NOT leaving a trap-door for future less freedom-minded legislatures to use to deny the right to carry.
    • Recent US Supreme Court decisions have found the right to carry to be a FUNDAMENTAL right. Being a fundamental right, law abiding citizens should not have to register with the government to exercise that right.

    In closing, I would just point out that this initiative would match up perfectly with your stated goals of,

    • Limiting the size and scope of government
    • Simplifying regulatory and tax policy
    • Putting people first

    Thank you very much for your consideration in this matter,
    Last edited by davegran; 11-13-2010 at 12:08 AM.
    Dave
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    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Have Gun - Will Carry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Thank you for clearing that up. I was in a rush at the time of my post as I had an interview this morning, which by the way, I got the job.
    Hey, congratulations! I also got a phone call yesterday informing me that I landed a nice job, after being unemployed for a LONG time. Too bad you can't make it to Lizzy's tomorrow - we could have celebrated together! Good luck with the new position.
    “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other.” - John Adams

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Experience? Experience means political success, which means (today) Democrat or Republican. And it is precisely these professional politicians who have become corrupt and unrepresentative of the American people.

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    Regular Member Beretta-m9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Have Gun - Will Carry View Post
    Hey, congratulations! I also got a phone call yesterday informing me that I landed a nice job, after being unemployed for a LONG time. Too bad you can't make it to Lizzy's tomorrow - we could have celebrated together! Good luck with the new position.
    congrats to both who have recently found employment, it's gettin difficult to do that these days.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    I copied much of this from another forum member's letter and I can't remember who... my bad...

    To: Representative Amy Representative Loudenbeck,
    Dave, I'm taking this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Have Gun - Will Carry View Post
    Hey, congratulations! I also got a phone call yesterday informing me that I landed a nice job, after being unemployed for a LONG time. Too bad you can't make it to Lizzy's tomorrow - we could have celebrated together! Good luck with the new position.
    Thanks and congrats to you too. I'll make it a once a month as it is a bit of a drive for me.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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