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Thread: WCI members must be united!

  1. #1
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    WCI members must be united!

    We are coming upon a critical time in our quest for choice carry. Right now we are speaking with too many voices, going in too many different directions. We need to speak as one voice.

    I would like to see us develop a common letter that all members can send to their state reps which outlines our position.

    I would like to have a date set for all members to come together at the state capitol for a "lobby day" to meet with our state reps in person and get some media coverage.

    We need to develop lists of which state reps are on our side and which state reps we need to convince to come to our side.

    We need to find a sponsor for the bill to repeal 941.23.

    Nik / Hubert you are the leaders of our organization. You should and are our main up front voices. The rest of us need to be ready to follow your lead.

    Some of the people on this section of this forum are not members of WCI. They have already decided choice carry is a lost cause and have retreated to permits and taxes and fees. We need to distance ourselves from these people and stay focused on our goal. To regain our full rights which have already been fought for and overwelmingly voted on. To regain our full rights as normal law obeying citizens.

    carry on

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    I agree with much of what Peacekeeper says, however, repealing only 941.23 and not dealing with the issues of vehicle carry and GFSZ at the same time would be a mistake in my opinion.

    While we are at it in terms of trying to find one voice, how about stopping the NRA bashing that some of you are so intent upon doing at every opportunity. We are likely to be working with the NRA as we seek to obtain concealed carry.

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    The problem here is that you have the WCI Chairman voicing his opinion that we should fight for the repeal. On the other hand the other board members are standing mute while the henchman/mouth piece is preaching to the choir to accept Gunderson's Bill with out question.

    With that in mind, do you blame everyone for getting confused?

    I have sent message after message concerning legislators who are willing to help with the repeal. I get no response from WCI. There are to many grudges held over past arguments that won't allow for reasonable communication. It is just plain childish and very unprofessional.

    Why should I keep preaching to my legislator that WCI has got the right idea when they won't even back up the statement?

    Maybe if we all walk away they will get the picture.

    It has become obvious that Spartacus is merely the mouth of which ever elite member does not want to publicly argue on this forum. He is a tool used to bully members into falling in line with the program. That is not the way members here should be treated.
    I could care less if your a founding member or not. I could care less if you go to the events or not. It is obvious that it may be best for some of us to avoid the events in order to avoid altercations because of comments and agendas that have been taken to far in this forum. This is VICIOUS AND STUBBORN issue and all I can say is that anyone here who is actually dedicated to the fight should stay on task and ignore any comments made by the disrupter. His behavior is planted in this forum to divide the members here.
    There is nothing wrong with being a member of WCI. There is everything wrong with believing that the WCI board members have to make every decision for us or that we can not take any initiatives on our own.

    I think Cowboy (Don Marso) is a great example of that.

    For any of us to turn tail and just fall in line to accept just any ole CCW Bill all for the sake of us getting a permit is just failure at its best and nothing more.

    With that said, if Gunderson comes to the table with a CCW Bill that does not include mandated training, ridiculous fees to cover the cost of the permit, or any compromise of OCW; and if this is the first bill that hits Walkers desk then so be it. It is not a bad start. Does that mean that we should not continue on and fight for the repeal before any bill can be handed to Walker? Hell no! Walker said he would sign either the repeal or a "Reasonable" CCW bill. We have to make sure that "Reasonable" is just that. It is Reasonable to pay say a $5.00 surcharge to cover the cost of the permit. It is reasonable that training should be an option left up to the carrier as mandated training may come with costs that are not affordable to lower income individuals and that is infringement.
    Because someone posts on here that we may just have to accept what is offered to us we all give up? Wow, what a disappointment this forum has turned out to be.
    I guess it is easier to just give up and accept what is offered then it is to get off your lazy arses and make some phone calls to your legislators. So I guess that means that all this talk in this forum is just that, talk. Only a select few here are really dedicated enough to actually make those calls, send those letters and emails or make those trips to their legislators office.
    Or am I wrong here and are we going to keep up the fight and stand our ground? Things worth having need to be fought for. We need to unite and fight together and stop letting others divide us and distract us from the mission.
    Look how far we have come this past year. Is it all for nothing? Or are we going to show these legislators that we mean what we say and we are going to hold them to the platform and the promises that they made during their campaigns?
    Regroup, organize, focus and fight on to the objective, and WIN!

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    Peacemaker:

    You mistake bashing with criticism. I as well as other members was a NRA member for years. Myself for forty of them. The NRA presence in Wisconsin was very obvious during the PPA days. When the Personal Protection Act failed the NRA left town. During the years we have been working hard to get open carrry established in Wisconsin the NRA has lended no hand. It reaches thousands of gun owners in Wisconsin with it's media and could be very influential in speading the news, even putting pressure on lawmakers n regards to the vehicle transport and GFSZ laws, yet for the most part it has been silent. It has been for the most part silent in it's support of our legal activities. However, now that Wisconsin has a new political arena and concealed carry is back on the table mark my words we will start hearing from it again as it tries to mold concealed carry to what it feels is in our best interest. Concealed carry is the NRA's first interest. It gives scant interest to choice of carry, especially open carry, even going so far as to publically say Wisconsin is one of two states that don't allow its people to carry firearms for personal protection. You can brand my criticism as bashing if you wish but it is only an expression of my frustration that when we needed the NRA the most to push our cause it seemed to turn its back and walk away.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 11-11-2010 at 01:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Peacemaker:

    You mistake bashing with criticism. I as well as other members was a NRA member for years. Myself for forty of them. The NRA presence in Wisconsin was very obvious during the PPA days. When the Personal Protection Act failed the NRA left town. During the years we have been working hard to get open carrry established in Wisconsin the NRA has lended no hand. It reaches thousands of gun owners in Wisconsin with it's media and could be very influential in speading the news, even putting pressure on lawmakers n regards to the vehicle transport and GFSZ laws, yet for the most part it has been silent. It has been for the most part silent in it's support of our legal activities. However, now that Wisconsin has a new political arena and concealed carry is back on the table mark my words we will start hearing from it again as it tries to mold concealed carry to what it feels is in our best interest. Concealed carry is the NRA's first interest. It gives scant interest to choice of carry, especially open carry, even going so far as to publically say Wisconsin is one of two states that don't allow its people to carry firearms for personal protection. You can brand my criticism as bashing if you wish but it is only an expression of my frustration that when we needed the NRA the most to push our cause it seemed to turn its back and walk away.
    +1000

  6. #6
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    As an organization unless we become more vocal, proactive and united in our cause for choice of carry I will wager a cup of the best coffee,if and when we meet at Starbucks that this is the way the carry legislation will play out. Any proposed legislation will be crafted as Rep Gunderson, the NRA and Gene German ( don't understimate the influence of Gene German) want it to be crafted. It will be baited. It will be baited with provisions of a Castle Doctrine. It will be baited with the authority to carry a permitted loaded and concealed firearm in a school zone. It will possibly be baited with some kind of exclusion to the vehicle transport law. Outside of this forum there is such a thirst for concealed carry amoung the gun owners of Wisconsin that unless we as an organization get our act together and become more visible in the arena we will be like a chihuahua in a fight with dobermans. I personally feel that the correct road is repeal of 941.23 which in itself would give us constitution protection of choice of carry. Being realistic I don't think that is important to many gun owners. They just want copy-catted concealed carry. We see evidence of that on this forum. The drafters of any proposed carry legislation have almost carte blanche authority to word it in any way they think will get them legislative approval. The Republican majority in the Assembly and Senate, in concert with the Republican promise to pass carry legislation, almost assures passage. Governor Walker will also be little proactive help to our cause. He has said he will sign any carry legislation that passes over his desk. The contents probably are of little concern. I feel we are definitely between a rock and a hard place and unless we stop fighting and start doing we are doomed to go down in flames.

    An Attorney General opinion on the constitutionality of 941.23 would surely be welcomed before January. We would then know where to draw the line in the sand.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 11-11-2010 at 03:37 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor gun View Post
    I agree with much of what Peacekeeper says, however, repealing only 941.23 and not dealing with the issues of vehicle carry and GFSZ at the same time would be a mistake in my opinion.

    While we are at it in terms of trying to find one voice, how about stopping the NRA bashing that some of you are so intent upon doing at every opportunity. We are likely to be working with the NRA as we seek to obtain concealed carry.
    Well that didn't take very long. We are already off topic and out of focus on the very first reply.

    If you want to rant about people ranting about the NRA start your own thread.

    And whats this concealed carry crap. Concealed carry implies fees, taxes, permits, more state employees, more government control. WCI advocates choice carry - that is carry the way you choose not the governments choice. Sorry if I sound a bit sarcastic, but we have to wake up. The republican party platform advocates lower taxes, smaller government, less government control. Its time to hold their feet to the fire and find out if they really mean what they say or if it was all just lip service to get elected.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Gleason View Post
    The problem here is that you have the WCI Chairman voicing his opinion that we should fight for the repeal. On the other hand the other board members are standing mute while the henchman/mouth piece is preaching to the choir to accept Gunderson's Bill with out question.

    With that in mind, do you blame everyone for getting confused?

    I have sent message after message concerning legislators who are willing to help with the repeal. I get no response from WCI. There are to many grudges held over past arguments that won't allow for reasonable communication. It is just plain childish and very unprofessional.

    Why should I keep preaching to my legislator that WCI has got the right idea when they won't even back up the statement?

    Maybe if we all walk away they will get the picture.

    It has become obvious that Spartacus is merely the mouth of which ever elite member does not want to publicly argue on this forum. He is a tool used to bully members into falling in line with the program. That is not the way members here should be treated.
    I could care less if your a founding member or not. I could care less if you go to the events or not. It is obvious that it may be best for some of us to avoid the events in order to avoid altercations because of comments and agendas that have been taken to far in this forum. This is VICIOUS AND STUBBORN issue and all I can say is that anyone here who is actually dedicated to the fight should stay on task and ignore any comments made by the disrupter. His behavior is planted in this forum to divide the members here.
    There is nothing wrong with being a member of WCI. There is everything wrong with believing that the WCI board members have to make every decision for us or that we can not take any initiatives on our own.

    I think Cowboy (Don Marso) is a great example of that.

    For any of us to turn tail and just fall in line to accept just any ole CCW Bill all for the sake of us getting a permit is just failure at its best and nothing more.

    With that said, if Gunderson comes to the table with a CCW Bill that does not include mandated training, ridiculous fees to cover the cost of the permit, or any compromise of OCW; and if this is the first bill that hits Walkers desk then so be it. It is not a bad start. Does that mean that we should not continue on and fight for the repeal before any bill can be handed to Walker? Hell no! Walker said he would sign either the repeal or a "Reasonable" CCW bill. We have to make sure that "Reasonable" is just that. It is Reasonable to pay say a $5.00 surcharge to cover the cost of the permit. It is reasonable that training should be an option left up to the carrier as mandated training may come with costs that are not affordable to lower income individuals and that is infringement.
    Because someone posts on here that we may just have to accept what is offered to us we all give up? Wow, what a disappointment this forum has turned out to be.
    I guess it is easier to just give up and accept what is offered then it is to get off your lazy arses and make some phone calls to your legislators. So I guess that means that all this talk in this forum is just that, talk. Only a select few here are really dedicated enough to actually make those calls, send those letters and emails or make those trips to their legislators office.
    Or am I wrong here and are we going to keep up the fight and stand our ground? Things worth having need to be fought for. We need to unite and fight together and stop letting others divide us and distract us from the mission.
    Look how far we have come this past year. Is it all for nothing? Or are we going to show these legislators that we mean what we say and we are going to hold them to the platform and the promises that they made during their campaigns?
    Regroup, organize, focus and fight on to the objective, and WIN!
    Someone has to be in charge. Others follow. You talk about reasonable fees and ccw permits. Why is it so difficult to understand that WCI advocates no permits and no fees.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Peacemaker:

    You mistake bashing with criticism. I as well as other members was a NRA member for years. Myself for forty of them. The NRA presence in Wisconsin was very obvious during the PPA days. When the Personal Protection Act failed the NRA left town. During the years we have been working hard to get open carrry established in Wisconsin the NRA has lended no hand. It reaches thousands of gun owners in Wisconsin with it's media and could be very influential in speading the news, even putting pressure on lawmakers n regards to the vehicle transport and GFSZ laws, yet for the most part it has been silent. It has been for the most part silent in it's support of our legal activities. However, now that Wisconsin has a new political arena and concealed carry is back on the table mark my words we will start hearing from it again as it tries to mold concealed carry to what it feels is in our best interest. Concealed carry is the NRA's first interest. It gives scant interest to choice of carry, especially open carry, even going so far as to publically say Wisconsin is one of two states that don't allow its people to carry firearms for personal protection. You can brand my criticism as bashing if you wish but it is only an expression of my frustration that when we needed the NRA the most to push our cause it seemed to turn its back and walk away.
    Um, I make NO mention of the NRA in my OP. And this is the first time I've typed those three letters together here on this forum. We need to focus on the WCI stand - hence the opening title - WCI members need to be united. Other groups can do what they want. We need to speak with a better voice.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    As an organization unless we become more vocal, proactive and united in our cause for choice of carry I will wager a cup of the best coffee,if and when we meet at Starbucks that this is the way the carry legislation will play out. Any proposed legislation will be crafted as Rep Gunderson, the NRA and Gene German ( don't understimate the influence of Gene German) want it to be crafted. It will be baited. It will be baited with provisions of a Castle Doctrine. It will be baited with the authority to carry a permitted loaded and concealed firearm in a school zone. It will possibly be baited with some kind of exclusion to the vehicle transport law. Outside of this forum there is such a thirst for concealed carry amoung the gun owners of Wisconsin that unless we as an organization get our act together and become more visible in the arena we will be like a chihuahua in a fight with dobermans. I personally feel that the correct road is repeal of 941.23 which in itself would give us constitution protection of choice of carry. Being realistic I don't think that is important to many gun owners. They just want copy-catted concealed carry. We see evidence of that on this forum. The drafters of any proposed carry legislation have almost carte blanche authority to word it in any way they think will get them legislative approval. The Republican majority in the Assembly and Senate, in concert with the Republican promise to pass carry legislation, almost assures passage. Governor Walker will also be little proactive help to our cause. He has said he will sign any carry legislation that passes over his desk. The contents probably are of little concern. I feel we are definitely between a rock and a hard place and unless we stop fighting and start doing we are doomed to go down in flames.

    An Attorney General opinion on the constitutionality of 941.23 would surely be welcomed before January. We would then know where to draw the line in the sand.
    Very well said!

  11. #11
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    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

    What's going on here? Where did all this pissiness with WCI come from? If it all came from Spartacus, that's one member and I think it's unfair that a whole organization is being judged by his conduct. That being said, I think I wouldn't turn a blind eye to it if I were a WCI officer but that's neither here nor there. Also, I think we could all be a little more thick skinned.

    I have been around here for quite a while and waited to join WCI until I saw that they were doing some good. I joined; not because of what I think they will do, but because of what they have already done. Racine, GFSZ lawsuit, and now Madison and Brookfield.

    People can sit around and Monday morning quarterback all they want but I have not seen WCI deviate from their core principle of "choice of carry" and since it seems that the chairman and I share a base political philosophy I believe whole heartedly; if that philosophy is followed, that freedom of carry will be fought for tooth and nail.

    It seems that this supposed deviation from principle is most likely perpetuated in the minds of some that have a hard time differentiating posts made officially by WCI and posts made by it's members.

    I would bring forward one idea that may help stop some of the bickering:

    People who claim to have "insider information" need to either post sources, not disseminate that information for the sole purpose of gaining some sort of "street cred", or just plain ****.

    That would go a long way in keeping others from feeling they aren't getting it straight.

    JMO
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-11-2010 at 09:32 AM.
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    Doug, serious question here. Why don't you and another person here who are perpetually unhappy about anything and everything anyone else does, just start your own organization? You could then make all the decisions, do everything to absolute perfection all the time and revel in the perfect little bubble that would surround you.

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    Not particularly, and I'm not going to argue semantics with you Doug. One must be aware of their limitations. Also, I believe I touched on the last part of your post in mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper View Post
    Someone has to be in charge. Others follow. You talk about reasonable fees and ccw permits. Why is it so difficult to understand that WCI advocates no permits and no fees.
    I also advocate no fees and no permits and have from the very beginning when many here told me I was nuts to think that Wisconsin could ever get Constitutional Carry. Anyone who has been here for any length of time knows that what I am saying is true.

    The point I was making is, that if the legislators choose not to listen to their constituents, that is providing that many here have gotten off their duff and actually contacted them, we may see Walker signing Gunderson's Bill.
    Walker said, he would sign any "REASONABLE" Bill. In my opinion a REASONABLE bill would at the very most include a minor fee such as $5.00 for example to pay for the cost of printing the permit and such. No mandated Training, No Compromise for OCW, it would include exempting the holder from vehicle carry restrictions and GFSZ restrictions as well as all of the other unconstitutional infringements that they call gun laws here in Wisconsin. That is the only way I will accept a permit system.

    Speaking of leaders, if we all have to be led around by the WCI board members then we deserve what we get. Saying that someone has to be the leader is a cop out, an excuse to do nothing, make no effort, wait for the other guy to do it. It is just plain laziness. Even Forest Gump had a better initiative than that.

    By the way how many legislative contacts have we all made today?

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    Personally, I think we need to go ALL OUT with no permits, training, etc.
    This is the ONLY opertunity we are going to get to push for what we REALLY WANT.
    Assume once this goes through, thats all we will probably get.
    This won't be up for debate repeatedly.
    It'll take years to get anything changed again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by na559 View Post
    Personally, I think we need to go ALL OUT with no permits, training, etc.
    This is the ONLY opertunity we are going to get to push for what we REALLY WANT.
    Assume once this goes through, thats all we will probably get.
    This won't be up for debate repeatedly.
    It'll take years to get anything changed again!
    You got that right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by na559 View Post
    Personally, I think we need to go ALL OUT with no permits, training, etc.
    This is the ONLY opertunity we are going to get to push for what we REALLY WANT.
    Assume once this goes through, thats all we will probably get.
    This won't be up for debate repeatedly.
    It'll take years to get anything changed again!
    Works for me...
    Anything less would trading away the Right we have now for a privilege

    LR Yote 312

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper View Post
    Well that didn't take very long. We are already off topic and out of focus on the very first reply.

    If you want to rant about people ranting about the NRA start your own thread.

    And whats this concealed carry crap. Concealed carry implies fees, taxes, permits, more state employees, more government control. WCI advocates choice carry - that is carry the way you choose not the governments choice. Sorry if I sound a bit sarcastic, but we have to wake up. The republican party platform advocates lower taxes, smaller government, less government control. Its time to hold their feet to the fire and find out if they really mean what they say or if it was all just lip service to get elected.
    It is not off topic. I am amazed that some of you seem to be fine with the ongoing silly restrictions we presently have regarding carry. Is it really a good idea to just repeal 941.23 and hope that somehow, somebody may some day get around to fixing the vehicular carry issue and the GFSZ issue? I think that is short sighted.

  19. #19
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    Do you have anything like IGOLD up there? IGOLD is the Illinois Gun Owner's Lobby Day, basically we get as many gun owners as possible together in the capital, march to the capital building, and then spend the day lobbying our representatives. Perhaps something like that could get going for Wisconsin?

  20. #20
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    James, you are so far off base its shocking. I'm going to respond to this ONCE and put an end to it.

    This internet forum has become a JOKE. Every internet forum has garbage to sift through to gather information. But this forum has become more pollution than information. ALL OF YOU GUYS who bicker in EVERY thread have made this forum unuseable. Don't blame anyone else. LOOK IN THE MIRROR. EACH of you.

    I will be honest. I read MAYBE 1 out of 10 posts on this garbage filled forum and ANYONE who participates in the mudslinging is equally to blame.

    You may think you are "taking on a bully" but the reality is you are just polluting the forum.

    To set the record straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Gleason View Post
    The problem here is that you have the WCI Chairman voicing his opinion that we should fight for the repeal. On the other hand the other board members are standing mute while the henchman/mouth piece is preaching to the choir to accept Gunderson's Bill with out question.
    Hubert has been on vacation at Disneyland with his kids for the past week. With his wife dying unexpectedly a couple months ago, and ALL the time he has devoted to WCI over the past year, I think its well deserved. I'm sure had he known J. Gleason was going to call him out for "standing mute" on topics on OCDO he would have let you know he was going.

    Its a shame you have a habit of jumping to your own erroneous conclusions and posting them on this forum as fact when they are not.

    I mean honestly J. With all the garbage on this forum do you REALLY think we have time to wade through it, AND do our regular jobs AND do all we do for WCI as volunteers? Sorry, the "forum" is the first thing to get LOW priority.

    Another WCI board member has never posted on these forums, so I don't know why you'd expect to hear from him, and Auric and I are posting less and less because the debate is no longer productive. Its just bashing back and forth between a small group of people. I know, you will blame it all on someone else, but you are just as much to blame for proliferating it. Takes 2 to tango.


    I have sent message after message concerning legislators who are willing to help with the repeal. I get no response from WCI. There are to many grudges held over past arguments that won't allow for reasonable communication. It is just plain childish and very unprofessional.
    I have not received ONE communication from you J. NOT ONE. ONCE again, you are jumping to your own conclusions and posting them as fact.

    Why should I keep preaching to my legislator that WCI has got the right idea when they won't even back up the statement?
    Maybe if we all walk away they will get the picture.
    Who do you mean by "we"??? The few people left on this forum?

    WCI is SO much larger than this forum. ONLY a fraction of our membership comes here. I'm sorry if you judge WCI by the participation on this online forum. Our activities are far more than that.

    We don't have all day to post and banter. We all have full time jobs. We do a GREAT deal and devote a GREAT deal of time to the cause, but I've come to know it will NEVER be enough for everyone and it certainly will never be enough for you.

    WCI does a lot of things. Thousands support it because of the things we do. If you want us to be "everything" you will be dissappointed.

    It has become obvious that Spartacus is merely the mouth of which ever elite member does not want to publicly argue on this forum. He is a tool used to bully members into falling in line with the program.
    J. now you are SO far off in left field you're bordering on libel. Once again, you jump to erroneous conclusions and spew it out on the board here.

    NO ONE speaks for WCI except for the board. NO ONE from the board asks ANYONE to engage in debate for us. NOT NOW, NOT EVER.

    The bickering has ruined the Wisconsin forum here on OCDO. WHY in the hell would we encourage someone to stir the pot???

    We have no control over what anyone posts. I've asked people to stop bickering. I've asked people to stop bashing back and forth. I've suggested that this is the internet and you CAN'T win an argument online, you can only STOP polluting it. If someone makes a rude post and you respond YOU are part of the problem. You HAVE to be the bigger man and STOP taking shots at people. NO ONE listened. NO ONE. If YOU didn't respond to a request to stop bickering why would you expect ANYONE ELSE that I asked to stop bickering to stop either?

    There is nothing wrong with being a member of WCI. There is everything wrong with believing that the WCI board members have to make every decision for us or that we can not take any initiatives on our own.
    I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR MONTHS!

    DO NOT ask WCI to do what you can do yourself. WE ARE ALL volunteer. For $15 or $100, we do not become your employee that will do EVERYTHING.

    There are things WCI can do that individuals may not have the capacity to (file lawsuits etc)

    There are other things that ANYONE can do.

    WCI cannot, will not, and could never be everything to everyone.

    With that said, if Gunderson comes to the table with a CCW Bill that does not include mandated training, ridiculous fees to cover the cost of the permit, or any compromise of OCW; and if this is the first bill that hits Walkers desk then so be it. It is not a bad start.
    For our part, WCI will do everything we can to move Wisconsin to a constitutional conceal carry state. That has ALWAYS been our mission and remains our mission. If we end up with Shall-issue this year instead of constitution carry, OUR MISSION DOES NOT CHANGE.

    I believe we can get there now, but its at BEST 50 50 odds. I'm looking forward to WHATEVER happens in late spring EVEN if its shall issue, because once we get SHALL ISSUE all the scardy-cats who are SO afraid that if we pushed for constitutional carry we'd end up with NOTHING will have their "shall issue" security blanket and then we can find out who REALLY supports constitution carry and who doesn't. I'm WELL aware WCI has members who today, probably don't care about constitution carry. They have been starved for years for right to carry and they'll accept anything. I ALSO know that once they begin to pay for training and pay for permits and then have to RENEW those permits and perhaps pay for MORE training when they renew... They'll some day realize constitution carry is where we need to be. WHEN THEY DO WCI will still be here, still be fighting.

    When those in love with shall-issue get charged with disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace for "printing" or for some mamby-pamby old lady liberal seeing a peek of their gun inside their jacket when they reach up to pull a can of beans off of the top-store shelf, WISCONSIN CARRY INC. will be there to back them up and protect their rights.

    Shall-issue is not the promised land, it is not the miracle cure. Many believe it is. WCI is here for the LOOONG haul.

    WCI has a plan to end-around all the people who want to leverage the government to drive $ to their door (mass FREE training to meet a training requirement IF it is put in place) We plan to give FREE training to 1000's because we don't believe government should be allowed to be leveraged to drive profit for private businesses (instructors)

    We believe in the free market AND the value of voluntary training within that free market.

    What if there was a shall-issue permit system that expanded OC rights without a permit?

    What if a shall-issue permit system was passed that left OC without a permit as-is and changed the GFSZ's to school property only and removed 167.31????

    Thus making OC WAY more practical in WAY more places?

    Will you bash that as a 'compromise'?

    WCI will not be able to please everyone.

    Legislation aside, WCI does MANY things. We file lawsuits to protect rights. We promote choice of carry. We educate the public, and many other facets of the cause.

    Legislation is the HARDEST part because we ALL know the legislative process is a SLIMY SLIMY world with backroom deals and favors and complex bills.

    I'll be honest, its the part of the movement that I HATE the most.

    I love promoting the cause, meeting people, educating them on OC, using the courts to address the rights of law abiding people being violated. Legislation is SLIMY, its UGLY, and its the part of what we do that I detest. But we feel we must participate in that process.

    Wow, what a disappointment this forum has turned out to be.
    D@mn right it sure has

    I
    guess it is easier to just give up and accept what is offered then it is to get off your lazy arses and make some phone calls to your legislators. So I guess that means that all this talk in this forum is just that, talk.
    YES. This forum is JUST talk. The REAL work happens off the forum. You guys with too much time on your hands use this forum as entertainment to bash each other and fill your day with DRAMA.

    So get off the forum, stop the nonsense and DO SOMETHING REAL.

    SO there is NO confusion, please note that WCI is becoming less and less active in these forums because they are polluted.

    WCI will continue to post announcements here but do not expect us to try to WADE through pages and pages of absolutely POINTLESS bashing back and forth.

    WCI has our facebook page to deliver information as well.

    We have been working diligently on a new professional website that will be MUCH more interactive and allow us to post content (announcements, articles, and such) and people will be allowed to post comments but we will ZAP ANY bull$hit comments that are posted.

    EVERY welcome letter that we send out to a new member use to contain a link to this discussion forum. WE will NO longer provide a link to this forum in our welcome letter, ONLY links to our facebook page, website, twitter, and youtube account.

    ALL you guys who have too much time on your hands that you can come here and bash each other every day, call names, blame, accuse, float conspiracy theory have made this necessary. You made it a forum full of more pollution than information. That was SO important to you that you just COULDN'T control your desire to bash back and forth incessantly. So enjoy.

    Carry On
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 11-11-2010 at 12:55 PM.
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    James, you are so far off base its shocking. I'm going to respond to this ONCE and put an end to it.

    This internet forum has become a JOKE. Every internet forum has garbage to sift through to gather information. But this forum has become more pollution than information. ALL OF YOU GUYS who bicker in EVERY thread have made this forum unuseable. Don't blame anyone else. LOOK IN THE MIRROR. EACH of you.

    I will be honest. I read MAYBE 1 out of 10 posts on this garbage filled forum and ANYONE who participates in the mudslinging is equally to blame.

    You may think you are "taking on a bully" but the reality is you are just polluting the forum.

    To set the record straight.


    Hubert has been on vacation at Disneyland with his kids for the past week. With his wife dying unexpectedly a couple months ago, and ALL the time he has devoted to WCI over the past year, I think its well deserved. I'm sure had he known J. Gleason was going to call him out for "standing mute" on topics on OCDO he would have let you know he was going.

    Its a shame you have a habit of jumping to your own erroneous conclusions and posting them on this forum as fact when they are not.

    I mean honestly J. With all the garbage on this forum do you REALLY think we have time to wade through it, AND do our regular jobs AND do all we do for WCI as volunteers? Sorry, the "forum" is the first thing to get LOW priority.

    Another WCI board member has never posted on these forums, so I don't know why you'd expect to hear from him, and Auric and I are posting less and less because the debate is no longer productive. Its just bashing back and forth between a small group of people. I know, you will blame it all on someone else, but you are just as much to blame for proliferating it. Takes 2 to tango.




    I have not received ONE communication from you J. NOT ONE. ONCE again, you are jumping to your own conclusions and posting them as fact.





    Who do you mean by "we"??? The few people left on this forum?

    WCI is SO much larger than this forum. ONLY a fraction of our membership comes here. I'm sorry if you judge WCI by the participation on this online forum. Our activities are far more than that.

    We don't have all day to post and banter. We all have full time jobs. We do a GREAT deal and devote a GREAT deal of time to the cause, but I've come to know it will NEVER be enough for everyone and it certainly will never be enough for you.

    WCI does a lot of things. Thousands support it because of the things we do. If you want us to be "everything" you will be dissappointed.



    J. now you are SO far off in left field you're bordering on libel. Once again, you jump to erroneous conclusions and spew it out on the board here.

    NO ONE speaks for WCI except for the board. NO ONE from the board asks ANYONE to engage in debate for us. NOT NOW, NOT EVER.

    The bickering has ruined the Wisconsin forum here on OCDO. WHY in the hell would we encourage someone to stir the pot???

    We have no control over what anyone posts. I've asked people to stop bickering. I've asked people to stop bashing back and forth. I've suggested that this is the internet and you CAN'T win an argument online, you can only STOP polluting it. If someone makes a rude post and you respond YOU are part of the problem. You HAVE to be the bigger man and STOP taking shots at people. NO ONE listened. NO ONE. If YOU didn't respond to a request to stop bickering why would you expect ANYONE ELSE that I asked to stop bickering to stop either?



    I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR MONTHS!

    DO NOT ask WCI to do what you can do yourself. WE ARE ALL volunteer. For $15 or $100, we do not become your employee that will do EVERYTHING.

    There are things WCI can do that individuals may not have the capacity to (file lawsuits etc)

    There are other things that ANYONE can do.

    WCI cannot, will not, and could never be everything to everyone.



    For our part, WCI will do everything we can to move Wisconsin to a constitutional conceal carry state. That has ALWAYS been our mission and remains our mission. If we end up with Shall-issue this year instead of constitution carry, OUR MISSION DOES NOT CHANGE.

    I believe we can get there now, but its at BEST 50 50 odds. I'm looking forward to WHATEVER happens in late spring EVEN if its shall issue, because once we get SHALL ISSUE all the scardy-cats who are SO afraid that if we pushed for constitutional carry we'd end up with NOTHING will have their "shall issue" security blanket and then we can find out who REALLY supports constitution carry and who doesn't. I'm WELL aware WCI has members who today, probably don't care about constitution carry. They have been starved for years for right to carry and they'll accept anything. I ALSO know that once they begin to pay for training and pay for permits and then have to RENEW those permits and perhaps pay for MORE training when they renew... They'll some day realize constitution carry is where we need to be. WHEN THEY DO WCI will still be here, still be fighting.

    When those in love with shall-issue get charged with disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace for "printing" or for some mamby-pamby old lady liberal seeing a peek of their gun inside their jacket when they reach up to pull a can of beans off of the top-store shelf, WISCONSIN CARRY INC. will be there to back them up and protect their rights.

    Shall-issue is not the promised land, it is not the miracle cure. Many believe it is. WCI is here for the LOOONG haul.

    WCI has a plan to end-around all the people who want to leverage the government to drive $ to their door (mass FREE training to meet a training requirement IF it is put in place) We plan to give FREE training to 1000's because we don't believe government should be allowed to be leveraged to drive profit for private businesses (instructors)

    We believe in the free market AND the value of voluntary training within that free market.

    What if there was a shall-issue permit system that expanded OC rights without a permit?

    What if a shall-issue permit system was passed that left OC without a permit as-is and changed the GFSZ's to school property only and removed 167.31????

    Thus making OC WAY more practical in WAY more places?

    Will you bash that as a 'compromise'?

    WCI will not be able to please everyone.

    Legislation aside, WCI does MANY things. We file lawsuits to protect rights. We promote choice of carry. We educate the public, and many other facets of the cause.

    Legislation is the HARDEST part because we ALL know the legislative process is a SLIMY SLIMY world with backroom deals and favors and complex bills.

    I'll be honest, its the part of the movement that I HATE the most.

    I love promoting the cause, meeting people, educating them on OC, using the courts to address the rights of law abiding people being violated. Legislation is SLIMY, its UGLY, and its the part of what we do that I detest. But we feel we must participate in that process.



    D@mn right it sure has

    I

    YES. This forum is JUST talk. The REAL work happens off the forum. You guys with too much time on your hands use this forum as entertainment to bash each other and fill your day with DRAMA.

    So get off the forum, stop the nonsense and DO SOMETHING REAL.

    SO there is NO confusion, please note that WCI is becoming less and less active in these forums because they are polluted.

    WCI will continue to post announcements here but do not expect us to try to WADE through pages and pages of absolutely POINTLESS bashing back and forth.

    WCI has our facebook page to deliver information as well.

    We have been working diligently on a new professional website that will be MUCH more interactive and allow us to post content (announcements, articles, and such) and people will be allowed to post comments but we will ZAP ANY bull$hit comments that are posted.

    EVERY welcome letter that we send out to a new member use to contain a link to this discussion forum. WE will NO longer provide a link to this forum in our welcome letter, ONLY links to our facebook page, website, twitter, and youtube account.

    ALL you guys who have too much time on your hands that you can come here and bash each other every day, call names, blame, accuse, float conspiracy theory have made this necessary. You made it a forum full of more pollution than information. That was SO important to you that you just COULDN'T control your desire to bash back and forth incessantly. So enjoy.

    Carry On
    OK Nik, so in fairness I will respond only this one time as well.

    To set the record straight, I have sent you messages on Facebook, and I have sent messages to Hubert and Auric on Facebook as well. Funny thing, when you were sending me messages a while back you had no problems responding then. I am not saying that I am positive that you are ignoring me I am saying that I have received no response to my messages. Those messages by the way concerning legislators that have expressed their interest in working with WCI. I even sent you messages letting you know that I was facing disciplinary actions through work for passing on a Walker fact check page to let state employees know that we had been lied to by the union. Again no response. Didn't want anything from you just thought you might be interested in the information as I know you have always been an avid Walker supporter.

    As far as the forum bully goes, it was he that made comments leaving the rest of us with the impression that he was speaking for the WCI board to keep the board members looking squeaky clean in the forum. All I asked was that one or all of you come forward and dispute his insinuations.

    Look how fast you jumped on what you thought was a negative comment coming from me, yet you say absolutely nothing on the negative comments from Spartacus. We get it, you think he is a great guy who has done a lot for the effort, regardless of what the rest of us have done. His table time out shines any of our efforts.

    He has directly made comments about how he is going to confront certain individuals at events. Is that really what you want? I am sure the media would love it.

    As far as the WCI membership and this forum, I wouldn't know. I have also sent messages asking what the membership size was or is and still to this day have not gotten an answer. I even asked if you could confirm my membership number, again no answer.

    Of course I could always go back and copy and paste those messages I suppose.

    Don't make out like I am targeting Hubert either. I am not. I happen to think he is a stand up guy and have absolutely no issues with him and in fact we both agree and have agreed on the repeal issue from the very beginning. I have been the strong proponent of Constitutional Carry here all along, even when back in the day, you told me I was nuts and it wouldn't happen. Then changes started coming about, court cases, law suits, WCI was created and you now agree that we have at least a 50/50 chance of making something happen with a repeal.

    Instead you make comments like " your so far off base it is shocking, and you are SO far off in left field you're bordering on libel," and in the past you have straight out called me a nut case.

    All I have been trying to do here is keep this forum focused on the goal. The same goal that WCI claims to have and that is repealing 941.23 and if we don't get that fighting for a fair, reasonable and constitutional CCW Bill.

    trying to keep everyone motivated is no small task. And as far as just sitting on this forum and trash typing, that is not me. I work two jobs and when I have free time I do come on here. There are some, whom it is evident by there post frequency are obviously unemployed and can post throughout the day or night. I am not one of them.

    I despise anyone who comes on here and purposely tries to mislead people into taking compromise and I will speak up when I see it happening. There is a difference between coming to this forum and getting good information and coming here and being manipulated by people who have their own agenda. I want people to know the truth and the facts about their rights and where this movement is going.

    Laying fault on this forum is ridiculous. Not referring people here is also ridiculous and is nothing more than cutting communication with those that are not considered members of the elite founders club. The fact that there even is such a difference in membership is ridiculous all by itself. There are many of us who have devoted countless hours into this cause and that time is just as valuable if not more than a mere hundred dollars that puts someone on the list of elite. I just wish you could realize how you make people feel out here.

    Hey I am just saying what many here will not say in the forum.

    I am a member of WCI because I believe in what it stands for. I do as much as I can. My work schedule does not allow me to make events, so be it. Doesn't make me any less important than any other member.

    I think you should go back and edit your post and take out the derogatory remarks about this forum so new members here can understand that there is information to be gained by membership here. After all if it were not for this forum WCI may not be here.

    Lets put an end to all this bickering bull crap and start communicating with each other so we can all stand together and get something done.

    ETA: What if there was a shall-issue permit system that expanded OC rights without a permit?

    What if a shall-issue permit system was passed that left OC without a permit as-is and changed the GFSZ's to school property only and removed 167.31????

    Thus making OC WAY more practical in WAY more places?

    Will you bash that as a 'compromise'?

    I would accept that as a start as long as it did not have the ridiculous fees and mandated training costs. Let me be clear, I do not need training. I already have what would be required. My concern is not for myself but those who may not be able to afford the cost. I also think you have an excellent idea with the free training through WCI. That may solve the problem.
    Last edited by J.Gleason; 11-11-2010 at 03:25 PM.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Gleason View Post
    What if a shall-issue permit system was passed that left OC without a permit as-is and changed the GFSZ's to school property only and removed 167.31????

    Thus making OC WAY more practical in WAY more places?

    Will you bash that as a 'compromise'?

    I would accept that as a start as long as it did not have the ridiculous fees and mandated training costs. Let me be clear, I do not need training. I already have what would be required. My concern is not for myself but those who may not be able to afford the cost. I also think you have an excellent idea with the free training through WCI. That may solve the problem.
    The underlined above is what I've been trying to tell you over and over again. The problem is that you have difficulty thinking in the 4th dimension, which is time, and with that lack of thinking in "time", you also lack of thinking also in context.

    You were too busy telling me "stay in your own state and don't tell us what to do". I have many interests in Wisconsin that are not readily apparent to everyone because I don't go into detail of which close friends and family members live in Wisconsin. Not to mention the completely preposterous assumptions that I am hooked up with Gene German or am some sort of firearms instructor wanting to make money off of Wisconsin carry licensees. Which is sort of funny because A) I'm not a firearms instructor and B) I'm currently (note, currently) reside in a state with NO TRAINING REQUIRED. Why, pray tell, would I want to saddle people with onerous and costly training requirements, or even any training at all, especially with something that's supposed to be a general weapons license?

    The problem is, James, is that you keep jumping to conclusions and posting them as fact. Because Rep. Gunderson says he's going to introduce a shall-issue concealed weapons bill, you right away assume a repeat of the 2003-2006 bills. Because Jordan Austin last fall (under Doyle) stated that there wasn't the votes for a veto override of Doyle for a repeal, Jordan Austin (and by extension, the NRA) somehow is against repeal of 941.23.

    I don't presume to speak for WCI (I'm a member, IIRC, if I'm not, Nik, let me know and I'll fix that up) or for Nik specifically, but the above paragraph is what causes others (including me) to be annoyed at you specifically. Your behavior, especially towards other forum guests when they point out the fallacies of your arguments (without attacking you personally) is unacceptable and violative of the rules of this forum.

    Specifically:

    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.

    Enough with the holier than thou crap, Jim.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    Not a very nice offering to Jim.
    Truth hurts.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    The underlined above is what I've been trying to tell you over and over again. The problem is that you have difficulty thinking in the 4th dimension, which is time, and with that lack of thinking in "time", you also lack of thinking also in context.

    You were too busy telling me "stay in your own state and don't tell us what to do". I have many interests in Wisconsin that are not readily apparent to everyone because I don't go into detail of which close friends and family members live in Wisconsin. Not to mention the completely preposterous assumptions that I am hooked up with Gene German or am some sort of firearms instructor wanting to make money off of Wisconsin carry licensees. Which is sort of funny because A) I'm not a firearms instructor and B) I'm currently (note, currently) reside in a state with NO TRAINING REQUIRED. Why, pray tell, would I want to saddle people with onerous and costly training requirements, or even any training at all, especially with something that's supposed to be a general weapons license?

    The problem is, James, is that you keep jumping to conclusions and posting them as fact. Because Rep. Gunderson says he's going to introduce a shall-issue concealed weapons bill, you right away assume a repeat of the 2003-2006 bills. Because Jordan Austin last fall (under Doyle) stated that there wasn't the votes for a veto override of Doyle for a repeal, Jordan Austin (and by extension, the NRA) somehow is against repeal of 941.23.

    I don't presume to speak for WCI (I'm a member, IIRC, if I'm not, Nik, let me know and I'll fix that up) or for Nik specifically, but the above paragraph is what causes others (including me) to be annoyed at you specifically. Your behavior, especially towards other forum guests when they point out the fallacies of your arguments (without attacking you personally) is unacceptable and violative of the rules of this forum.

    Specifically:

    (12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.

    Enough with the holier than thou crap, Jim.
    First off, Gray
    When did I say you were a firearms instructor? When did I say you were associated with the likes of Gene German? I think it is you who is full of assumptions and you know what they say about when you assume, it makes an ass of u and me. Don't put words in my mouth.

    And as far as me presuming to speak for WCI, you got that wrong I only speak as a member. You on the other had appear in your statement above to be presumably speaking for Nik.
    Now, under the request of my friend Brass I respectfully declined on arguing with you in another post. Now you bring the argument to me. So then in your and Nik's eyes, I am then the bad guy again. Nicely played. I think the others here see right through that.

    I know what was said by the NRA guy last fall. It was not my imagination as much as you would like to think that. Now that Walker is in the NRA will again move forward and try to get the bill in. I just hope Gunderson has made the changes that you and Nik have approved for the Bill.

    And speaking of the holier than tho crap you and Nik might just want to sweep your own door steps first. Deleted Personal Attack - OCDO Moderator

    Therefore, I have nothing further to say to you about the issue. No sense in arguing with someone who has nothing at stake here in Wisconsin.
    Last edited by J.Gleason; 11-11-2010 at 07:55 PM.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    As an organization unless we become more vocal, proactive and united in our cause for choice of carry I will wager a cup of the best coffee,if and when we meet at Starbucks that this is the way the carry legislation will play out. Any proposed legislation will be crafted as Rep Gunderson, the NRA and Gene German ( don't understimate the influence of Gene German) want it to be crafted.
    And WCI just nullified Gene German's attempts to create a Utah-style instructor system. They pretty much stated that they will offer the training for free to members and non-members alike, and they have instructors lined up who will donate time and treasure to the cause.

    It will be baited. It will be baited with provisions of a Castle Doctrine. It will be baited with the authority to carry a permitted loaded and concealed firearm in a school zone. It will possibly be baited with some kind of exclusion to the vehicle transport law. Outside of this forum there is such a thirst for concealed carry amoung the gun owners of Wisconsin that unless we as an organization get our act together and become more visible in the arena we will be like a chihuahua in a fight with dobermans.
    Most people that carry for self defense do not and will never want to carry openly. For a sizeable majority of persons that want to carry, they see what happened to the Madison 5 and afraid it will happen to them. Unless concealed carry is allowed as an option, self defense.

    There's also continual misapprehension of the timelines and the players involved, a belief of this "dark and evil foreboding conspiracy". Such a conspiracy only exists in people's minds.

    Every previous PPA bill was an unclean bill due to having to beg for a two thirds majority vote. WCI nullified the potential of moneymaking off the backs of license holders if mandated training did actually make it in. The fact that mandated training isn't even a default discussion, considering that it's a concealed weapons license and there really isn't a "training class" for knives, is getting quite a bit of particular attention (yes, KnifeRights has been or already has been notified the goings on in Wisconsin and would be likely be weighing in against mandated firearms training for a general weapon's license).

    I made my opinions to Mr. Gunderson and Mr. Austin clear. They both have been put on notice that fixing vehicle carry, GFSZA, and disorderly conduct code purely for license holders is unacceptable, and that they need to significantly rewrite the weapons code of Wisconsin. I gave them a large list of fixes (over a dozen) that needs to be done in any bill. I won't post them here so that WAVE can just lift them up and start hammering away at specific points with legislators, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

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