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OCing past the picket line of a store on strike

J

Jeff Hayes

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NavyLT said:
So, in a union trade where a person is required to join the union in order to work.... that is freedom?

To keep this post on topic: I would have no problem crossing a picket line open carrying. IF (and I doubt it would ever happen) I was assaulted, the person committing the assault would be treated just like any other person committing an assault.
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NavyLT I was saying just the reverse, I would never join a union because then someone else would be making decisions for me. I make my own decisions and deals and I deal with the results of said decisions. I am a free man not beholden to anyone else unless I choose to be.
 
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Leatherneck said:
I think he's saying that non-union workers support freedom and union workers don't care about freedom.
He's wrong, "and that's all I have to say on this subject" (in an effort to keep it on track).
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No thats not what I said. What I was implying was by joining a union you give up some of your personal freedom. I dont care who joins a union or who does not join a union that is their business and none of mine.
 
Leatherneck

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Point taken. And I know what you mean.
However, without union strength, when "the man" decides he's going to cut your wages, benefits, pension, etc. you only have 2 choices:
1. Bend over
2. Quit & job hunt

I don't agree with my union and the brothers on MANY points, but at least I'm not moving backwards.
(I guess that wasn't all I had to say about the subject. :) )
 
amlevin

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Leatherneck said:
Point taken. And I know what you mean.
However, without union strength, when "the man" decides he's going to cut your wages, benefits, pension, etc. you only have 2 choices:
1. Bend over
2. Quit & job hunt

I don't agree with my union and the brothers on MANY points, but at least I'm not moving backwards.
(I guess that wasn't all I had to say about the subject. :) )
Click to expand...

You left out another option. One has the right to start his own business and sell his talents without someone else running the show.

My son was faced with this option several years ago and now owns his own business making 4-5 times the money he was making working for someone else. I spent 15 years owning my own business. There are more "Small Business owners in this country than there are in the Big Business Sector. Many of these small businesses sell their products or services to those Large Corporations and others work directly for the Public.

There are many options and the biggest rewards go to those who took the time to get the skills, and have the drive, and put it all in effect without waiting for someone else to "give them a job".
 
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Jeff Hayes

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amlevin said:
You left out another option. One has the right to start his own business and sell his talents without someone else running the show.

My son was faced with this option several years ago and now owns his own business making 4-5 times the money he was making working for someone else. I spent 15 years owning my own business. There are more "Small Business owners in this country than there are in the Big Business Sector. Many of these small businesses sell their products or services to those Large Corporations and others work directly for the Public.

There are many options and the biggest rewards go to those who took the time to get the skills, and have the drive, and put it all in effect without waiting for someone else to "give them a job".
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+10000 give or take, thats exactly what I did, good luck to your son.
 
sudden valley gunner

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Orphan said:
+10000 give or take, thats exactly what I did, good luck to your son.
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I'll add another 10000 to that post and it is what I did too.

Sorry Ajetpilot I thought your post about staying on topic was good but couldn't help myself on this one.

Now back on topic.

I would cross the line, the same way I would cross a brady campaign picketing a business that is accepting of our chosen method of carry.
 
Metalhead47

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Leatherneck said:
You're right. That is a great option!
Personally, I can't afford the start up costs. Too many tools required.
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+1

And the "quit & start your own" gig doesn't work with every profession.

In a perfect world, unions wouldn't be needed because employers would always treat their employees fairly, paying the highest wages possible while maintaining profit, and those who worked the hardest and produced the most would receive the highest wage.

The world ain't perfect. Many, probably most, employers are greedy and selfish. Unions and damn greedy and selfish. Now in an ideal (not perfect) world, the greed and power of the union would serve to balance the greed & power of the employer.

Unions have done A LOT of good for the blue collar worker. They've also done much irreparable harm.
 
sudden valley gunner

sudden valley gunner

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olypendrew said:
Everyone is greedy and selfish.
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This is what I say all the time and why socialism and marxism just won't work. You can theoretically talk about how nice it would be but the bottom line is it is human nature to look after ourselves and families first.

Even charity is greedy it is done to make ourselves feel better, and I don't think that is a bad thing.
 
Chris.R.Anderson

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In an "ideal world", a lot less people would be out of work at the moment because unions would not have driven manufacturing costs so high that all our "blue collar" jobs fled to China and Hong Kong to be free of the unions.
 
amlevin

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Chris.R.Anderson said:
In an "ideal world", a lot less people would be out of work at the moment because unions would not have driven manufacturing costs so high that all our "blue collar" jobs fled to China and Hong Kong to be free of the unions.
Click to expand...

Early Union activity was to provide safe workplaces, fair wages, and a reasonable work day. Some were really more like "Craft Guilds" in the tradition of the Europeans where training and quality of work was protected.

Today's Unions are more about Higher pay with little relationship to productivity (just say "Piece work" to a Union Boss and then start running). Recently they say "It's not about the pay but benefits". So benefits don't have a cost to the employer, right? I'd start believing that Unions were all for the working man as soon as they adopt a pay policy that pays Union Leaders no more than 10% more than the highest paid "rank and file" member.

"Last year, 110 Teamster officials received a salary of $150,000 or more—the highest number ever. Thirty-five Teamster officials made more than $200,000.

President Hoffa received the most total compensation of any Teamster official: $383,132."

http://www.tdu.org/2009salaryreport

Compare this with some of the "Better Paid" Teamsters at UPS:

"UPS employees are without a doubt one of the more fortunate employees with higher than average incomes and excellent benefits. Some UPS drivers normally make $1,000 per week. It has been reported they earn anywhere from $50,000 to $70,000 a year."

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/ups_strike.html

When "Executives" that profess to have the "working man" at heart make salaries like this, they don't have any of the same problems like paying the rent, buying groceries, deciding between braces for the kids or new school clothes, driving the "old beater" a couple more years or getting a new one, etc.

Reality is that many union members make a lot less than UPS Drivers and the executives in their unions make a lot more than the 3-5 times that of the rank and file.

Union membership is definitely a choice. Just don't try and convince everyone that the only place greed exists is in Corporate America.

A pig is a pig whether they belong to the Country Club or the AFL-CIO
image_thumb.png
 
J

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amlevin said:
Early Union activity was to provide safe workplaces, fair wages, and a reasonable work day. Some were really more like "Craft Guilds" in the tradition of the Europeans where training and quality of work was protected.

Today's Unions are more about Higher pay with little relationship to productivity (just say "Piece work" to a Union Boss and then start running). Recently they say "It's not about the pay but benefits". So benefits don't have a cost to the employer, right? I'd start believing that Unions were all for the working man as soon as they adopt a pay policy that pays Union Leaders no more than 10% more than the highest paid "rank and file" member.

"Last year, 110 Teamster officials received a salary of $150,000 or more—the highest number ever. Thirty-five Teamster officials made more than $200,000.

President Hoffa received the most total compensation of any Teamster official: $383,132."

http://www.tdu.org/2009salaryreport

Compare this with some of the "Better Paid" Teamsters at UPS:

"UPS employees are without a doubt one of the more fortunate employees with higher than average incomes and excellent benefits. Some UPS drivers normally make $1,000 per week. It has been reported they earn anywhere from $50,000 to $70,000 a year."

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/ups_strike.html

When "Executives" that profess to have the "working man" at heart make salaries like this, they don't have any of the same problems like paying the rent, buying groceries, deciding between braces for the kids or new school clothes, driving the "old beater" a couple more years or getting a new one, etc.

Reality is that many union members make a lot less than UPS Drivers and the executives in their unions make a lot more than the 3-5 times that of the rank and file.

Union membership is definitely a choice. Just don't try and convince everyone that the only place greed exists is in Corporate America.

A pig is a pig whether they belong to the Country Club or the AFL-CIO
image_thumb.png
Click to expand...

Well said
 
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New Daddy

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sudden valley gunner said:
This is what I say all the time and why socialism and marxism just won't work. You can theoretically talk about how nice it would be but the bottom line is it is human nature to look after ourselves and families first.

Even charity is greedy it is done to make ourselves feel better, and I don't think that is a bad thing.
Click to expand...

The problem is the capitalism doesn't work either. We had capitalism prior to the unions (we don't have capitalism now). Under capitalism, the "owners" pay workers a fair wage for fair work. What we had was owners trying to starve out workers while working them to death. That's why we have unions now.

Businesses are capitalist when it suits their purpose and socialist the rest of the time. That's why they are always asking for subsidies, bailouts, and tax breaks.

Unions, unfortunately are running the other way. However, given the salaries of top executives at most companies, I wish them the best of luck in taking as much as they can out of the company before it off shores their jobs to China so some executive can make $150 million instead of $100 million. You can use the threat of them taking the jobs overseas, but when the alternative is indentured servitude (slavery), I'll wave bye-bye every time.

The real cause of off shoring was the first American worker who decided saving $2 on a toaster was more important than paying a living wage or having environmental controls. I hope it was worth it.
 
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New Daddy said:
The real cause of off shoring was the first American worker who decided saving $2 on a toaster was more important than paying a living wage or having environmental controls. I hope it was worth it.
Click to expand...

Nail hit square on the head but you left out the next 200 milion that purchased Toyotas, Datsuns etc.
 
trevorthebusdriver

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amlevin said:
"UPS employees are without a doubt one of the more fortunate employees with higher than average incomes and excellent benefits. Some UPS drivers normally make $1,000 per week. It has been reported they earn anywhere from $50,000 to $70,000 a year."
Click to expand...

Why bust your ass at UPS for that much when you could drive a bus? :) Try shipping that job to China.
 
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