Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: Ive got a Home Defense question

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Pontiac, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    285

    Ive got a Home Defense question

    Since i OC. Lets say im not home my wife and kids are home alone is it legal for her to grab my Marlin 22lr which has a 10rd clip and use it for her protection. She doesnt want a handgun she likes rifles. Its in my name the marlin.
    Last edited by army74; 11-11-2010 at 10:56 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    54
    I assume you mean in the event of a home invasion and that she would not be leaving the house with it.

    Is your wife legally allowed to be in possession of a firearm?

    If so, then yes, she may use the gun in the house to defend herself and the children.

    As usual, I recommend that a scenario is practiced, a safe room is decided upon, and your wife receive training.
    Last edited by Sefner; 11-11-2010 at 11:04 PM.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    I would say that the kids should be involved in the training, so that they, your wife, and you all know what to expect from one another. You don't want the SHTF, and the kids to be standing there with a big on their faces.

  4. #4
    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Clio, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    151
    Quote Originally Posted by Sefner View Post
    I assume you mean in the event of a home invasion and that she would not be leaving the house with it.

    Is your wife legally allowed to be in possession of a firearm?

    If so, then yes, she may use the gun in the house to defend herself and the children.

    As usual, I recommend that a scenario is practiced, a safe room is decided upon, and your wife receive training.
    I take exception to the part about wether or not she is "legally allowed" ??

    I am currently bared the right to selfdefence but the wife has weapons. I garentee if I am home and SHTF wether or not she is home I will be manning a defensive position and I WILL be armed !!!!!

    I would AND WILL bet my life that when I face a jury of my peers they will not fualt me for shooting my attacker, because I know when I can and when I CANNOT engage a threat. When the LEO's showup and find my attacker laying there neatly perforated holding a weapon I somehow doubt I will even be charged.

    Sounds like bravado but I'd rather go to prison then to the mourge.

    I have had the what to do in a SHTF situation talk with the family and they all know to head for the basement and where EXACTLY they are to be for me to beable to effectivly defend them. I am blessed with a natural fatal funnel built into the house for anyone to get to my family in the assinged position they HAVE to come thru it to get there
    Last edited by CharleyMarbles; 11-12-2010 at 12:39 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wyandotte, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    456
    In the home anyone using the weapon is safe unless they are prohibited by law from possessing/using a weapon. Even then, if it's a good shoot, most prosecutors won't make an issue out of it unless it's a bad shoot. They have to stop and think that if the case went to trial, how would a jury feel about someone defending their life or own home.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyMarbles View Post

    Sounds like bravado but I'd rather go to prison then to the mourge.
    Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mason, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by army74 View Post
    Since i OC. Lets say im not home my wife and kids are home alone is it legal for her to grab my Marlin 22lr which has a 10rd clip and use it for her protection. She doesn't want a handgun she likes rifles. Its in my name the marlin.
    Short answer: Yes.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by army74 View Post
    Its in my name the marlin.
    Since MI doesn't register long guns there is no "in your name." You may be the person who purchased it but you are free to give or sell it to anyone who is legally allowed to possess a firearm with no silly governmental intrusion or paperwork. So "give" it to her if it makes you feel better.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 11-12-2010 at 05:45 AM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyMarbles View Post
    I take exception to the part about wether or not she is "legally allowed" ??

    I am currently bared the right to selfdefence but the wife has weapons. I garentee if I am home and SHTF wether or not she is home I will be manning a defensive position and I WILL be armed !!!!!

    I would AND WILL bet my life that when I face a jury of my peers they will not fualt me for shooting my attacker, because I know when I can and when I CANNOT engage a threat. When the LEO's showup and find my attacker laying there neatly perforated holding a weapon I somehow doubt I will even be charged.

    Sounds like bravado but I'd rather go to prison then to the mourge.

    I have had the what to do in a SHTF situation talk with the family and they all know to head for the basement and where EXACTLY they are to be for me to beable to effectivly defend them. I am blessed with a natural fatal funnel built into the house for anyone to get to my family in the assinged position they HAVE to come thru it to get there
    I gather, from this barely coherent train wreck of the English language, that you don't agree with me saying whether or not she is legally allowed to possess a firearm.

    OP asked if it was legal for his wife to use the weapon in self defense. Part of using the weapon in self defense is possessing the weapon (which MI law defines as holding in your hands). If his wife is a convicted felon (not saying she is, just answering the question) then it is illegal for her to possess a firearm and thus it would not be legal for her to use the firearm in self defense.

    OP was not asking whether or not his wife should use the weapon, or whether it is moral, or some other question. He was asking a legal question that I answered. I'm glad that you think that you could convince a jury that your actions would be in self defense but that's no the crime OP's wife would be charged with, it would be whether or not she illegally possessed a firearm at the time of the shooting, and if she is lawfully unable to possess the firearm then she would be committing the crime of illegally possessing a firearm. The jury decides whether or not the crime occurred (if this case even went to jury). not whether or not the actions following the crime were allowed. That would be a different case.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Fisherman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    45R
    Posts
    160
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I would say that the kids should be involved in the training, so that they, your wife, and you all know what to expect from one another. You don't want the SHTF, and the kids to be standing there with a big on their faces.
    While this is true enough, you don't to have them walking around afraid of living and being kids. We're not there yet.

    I'm curious. what does that mean in your sig about copyrights?

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    RE copyrights. Millions of videos have been pulled from youtube due to so called copyright infringements. People buy a CD, the company and the artist get their money, and the person who bought it then puts it on youtube. Then, the lawyers for the music company cry and scream because they aren't getting paid for it again. They sold it. Besides, anything put on the internet is fair game, including music. These so called "pirated" videos get pulled down based on these copyright claims, bye bye Mrs. American pie. Even though the artist, nor the company has been able to prove any loss. Whatever happened to the days of the dual cassette player, when you wanted a song, you just dubbed it from a friend? You weren't called names, and then sued. You just had music to listen to, the musicians and record companies still got sickeningly rich. The people responsible for pulling down the songs are the real pirates, they are the ones stealing music from the people. This is hurting the music industry, and the musicians by costing them free advertising. Someone uploads a song, others hear it, like it, and want to hear more. So, they either buy the CD, because few bands have every single song available, or the person will go to a concert, and likely buy merchandise while they are there. On the other hand, people like Metallica and Jewel, who invent these problems, just cost themselves money, they shoot themselves in the foot, and many people just boycott their band.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    Quote Originally Posted by Sefner View Post
    Part of using the weapon in self defense is possessing the weapon (which MI law defines as holding in your hands). If his wife is a convicted felon (not saying she is, just answering the question) then it is illegal for her to possess a firearm and thus it would not be legal for her to use the firearm in self defense.
    Not necessarily.
    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...arm+possession

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  13. #13
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    Posts
    1,319
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    RE copyrights. Millions of videos have been pulled from youtube due to so called copyright infringements. People buy a CD, the company and the artist get their money, and the person who bought it then puts it on youtube. Then, the lawyers for the music company cry and scream because they aren't getting paid for it again. They sold it. Besides, anything put on the internet is fair game, including music. These so called "pirated" videos get pulled down based on these copyright claims, bye bye Mrs. American pie. Even though the artist, nor the company has been able to prove any loss. Whatever happened to the days of the dual cassette player, when you wanted a song, you just dubbed it from a friend? You weren't called names, and then sued. You just had music to listen to, the musicians and record companies still got sickeningly rich. The people responsible for pulling down the songs are the real pirates, they are the ones stealing music from the people. This is hurting the music industry, and the musicians by costing them free advertising. Someone uploads a song, others hear it, like it, and want to hear more. So, they either buy the CD, because few bands have every single song available, or the person will go to a concert, and likely buy merchandise while they are there. On the other hand, people like Metallica and Jewel, who invent these problems, just cost themselves money, they shoot themselves in the foot, and many people just boycott their band.
    Sorry for the continued off topic discussion, but I once saw a really good article about buying the physical goods vs. buying the licensed music. If I bought the physical goods, I can do whatever I want with it. If I bought the license, the music should be provided to free for me if I lose the CD, or it's scratched, broken, etc. This is extremely simplified, but the basic gist is there.
    "They don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band
    It ain't what they call rock and roll
    And the Sultans...
    Yeah the Sultans, they play Creole"

    OCDO Member
    NCGO Member

  14. #14
    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    beckofbeyond - Idaho
    Posts
    476
    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    That is not a good link for non MGO readers, can you not just post the thread? Please.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157
    Here's a link to the court decision http://courts.michigan.gov/supremeco...96-Opinion.pdf

    I don't know how to post the entire thread here, nor do I think I should, so if you want to read the discussion you'll probably have to sign up at MGO.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,440
    Are felons allowed to have firearms in their home, even though they may not be the owner of said firearm? If not the "temporary possession in the course of self defense" the courts allowed as reasonable may not apply.

  17. #17
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Chesterfield Township, MI
    Posts
    1,137
    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Are felons allowed to have firearms in their home, even though they may not be the owner of said firearm? If not the "temporary possession in the course of self defense" the courts allowed as reasonable may not apply.

    agreed.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  18. #18
    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Clio, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    151
    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Are felons allowed to have firearms in their home, even though they may not be the owner of said firearm? If not the "temporary possession in the course of self defense" the courts allowed as reasonable may not apply.
    As it was explained to me my wife is allowed to posess firears and cannot be barred her right's because I am, so I don't own any weapons she does. She also lives at the same address as I do so that is where her arms are stored. If there was an incident where I needed to defend myself or my family in my house I don't see any reason why my possesion of a weapon owned by my wife would not be able to be concidered a Justified possesion for the perposes of selfdefence.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    City
    Posts
    1,077
    Nothing illegal here.

    Even if she grabbed your glock to resist a home invasion it is legal.



    Quote Originally Posted by army74 View Post
    Since i OC. Lets say im not home my wife and kids are home alone is it legal for her to grab my Marlin 22lr which has a 10rd clip and use it for her protection. She doesn't want a handgun she likes rifles. Its in my name the marlin.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    City
    Posts
    1,077
    Really

    We always are there. We will always be there. Children don't worry like adults do. They wont have the lives ruined by knowing how to defend themselves.

    Yes the children if mature enough should know. I am a bit confused as to what planet you live on to say we are not there yet. If it wasn't Indians, bears, Mountain Lions or criminals even our ancestors had bee there as you call it. All over this country today we have violent home invasions, and worse. Most we never see on the nightly news.

    If the children are mature enough why not. Remember a 16 year old is still a child.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
    While this is true enough, you don't to have them walking around afraid of living and being kids. We're not there yet.

    I'm curious. what does that mean in your sig about copyrights?
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mason, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Are felons allowed to have firearms in their home, even though they may not be the owner of said firearm? If not the "temporary possession in the course of self defense" the courts allowed as reasonable may not apply.
    I believe, I recall somewhere, felons could have firearms as long as they don't fire modern ammunition, such as cap and ball type firearms.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    8,948
    Yeah, I've heard that as well, now that you mention it, I think that it was here on OCDO.

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mason, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Yeah, I've heard that as well, now that you mention it, I think that it was here on OCDO.
    I think I read it somewhere else first, but I also recall it in a thread here too. Heck, it may even have been on the ATF website.
    Big Gay Al
    Coordinator, Michigan Pink Pistols
    Big Gay Al's Big Gay (Gun) Blog
    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Maybee, Michigan
    Posts
    679
    this is from a article from feb 2010 so unless things have changes, its still NO to felon in his home with a firearm in possession or not!

    US v. Balanga, 109 F.3d 1299 (8th Cir. 1997).
    Another instructive case is US v. Balanga, 109 F.3d 1299 (8th Cir. 1997). Balanga argued on appeal that there was insufficient evidence to support his conviction for being in possession of a .22 caliber rifle and ammunition found in his basement. Balanga argued that he did not possess a key to his basement door's padlock while another person stored a rifle and ammunition in Balanga's basement. Balanga admitted that he knew of the .22 caliber rifle and the ammunition that was stored in his basement, but argued that because he did not have a key to the basement, he did not have access to the rifle and the ammunition, and therefore did not possess them.

    The court disagreed, finding that to convict Balanga of being a felon in possession of a firearm, the government had the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he "'exercised ownership, dominion or control over the firearms or dominion over the premises'" where the firearms were stored. The court ruled that, "In this case the jury could have reasonably concluded that Balanga failed to refute the normal inference of dominion over his own home. While there was some testimony at trial to support Balanga's assertion that he did not have a key to his own basement during the period in question, there was also evidence that Balanga in fact retained a key."

    So, the mere presence of a firearm in the home of a convicted felon (where he has "dominion") will raise a presumption that he is in possession of it in violation of the law. The burden shifts to the prohibited person to prove in court that he had no access whatsoever to the firearm. From the cases, this appears to be a very heavy burden.

    Finally, note also that the wife who allows her convicted felon husband to possess the firearm is also guilty of a federal felony under 18 USC 922(d). Transfers of firearms to any prohibited persons is unlawful under federal law.
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
    American Tactical Imports C45 45 AP
    S&W sigma 40 Cal
    Bersa 380 Thunder Plus
    Hi point C9 9mm
    Chiappa 1911-22 Semi-Auto .22 LR

    Im not a lawyer, but I did play a Klingon once at Universal Studios

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,440
    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    this is from a article from feb 2010 so unless things have changes, its still NO to felon in his home with a firearm in possession or not!

    US v. Balanga, 109 F.3d 1299 (8th Cir. 1997).
    Another instructive case is US v. Balanga, 109 F.3d 1299 (8th Cir. 1997). Balanga argued on appeal that there was insufficient evidence to support his conviction for being in possession of a .22 caliber rifle and ammunition found in his basement. Balanga argued that he did not possess a key to his basement door's padlock while another person stored a rifle and ammunition in Balanga's basement. Balanga admitted that he knew of the .22 caliber rifle and the ammunition that was stored in his basement, but argued that because he did not have a key to the basement, he did not have access to the rifle and the ammunition, and therefore did not possess them.

    The court disagreed, finding that to convict Balanga of being a felon in possession of a firearm, the government had the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he "'exercised ownership, dominion or control over the firearms or dominion over the premises'" where the firearms were stored. The court ruled that, "In this case the jury could have reasonably concluded that Balanga failed to refute the normal inference of dominion over his own home. While there was some testimony at trial to support Balanga's assertion that he did not have a key to his own basement during the period in question, there was also evidence that Balanga in fact retained a key."

    So, the mere presence of a firearm in the home of a convicted felon (where he has "dominion") will raise a presumption that he is in possession of it in violation of the law. The burden shifts to the prohibited person to prove in court that he had no access whatsoever to the firearm. From the cases, this appears to be a very heavy burden.

    Finally, note also that the wife who allows her convicted felon husband to possess the firearm is also guilty of a federal felony under 18 USC 922(d). Transfers of firearms to any prohibited persons is unlawful under federal law.
    That's what I thought. Good cite.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •