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Thread: Am I being detained?

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Am I being detained?

    Why do people ask this? I suggest the following:

    1) If you're having that kind of conversation, you're already detained.
    2) LEOs will just not answer, ask you a question back, etc. It's not useful. They dodge it.

    Instead, I propose, ask "Why am I being detained?"

    This makes it clear that you already are detained. They can either tell you you're not being detained, or cite a (probably bogus) reason for a detainment. This tells you that you're either free to go, or he's just incriminated himself by not only admitting you're detained, but by giving you his bogus reason for doing it.

    a few unpleasant thigns...
    "Why am I being detained?"
    "Because you have a gun."
    or
    "Becasue you're scaring people by having a gun"
    or
    "Because I feel like it."
    or
    "Just do what I say, pal."

    a few unpleasant thigns...
    "Why am I being detained?"
    "Oh, you're not being detained."
    "Adieu!"

    There is simply no response they can have that doesn't either mean you're free to go, or prove that you're being detained and what the excuse is for it.

    Of course, they can still refuse to answer you. But since it will be they who are being unfriendly at that point, it is impossible to paint the picture that you are the one 'refusing to cooperate' when it is he who is being that way. It is also not a "friendly conversation" or "I just want to talk" crapola. Once he gets 'like that,' it's entirely reasonable to refuse to answer any more questions and exercise your right to remain silent. Bottom line, let it be the LEO who causes that em-pass, not you. Asking "Why am I being detained" instead of IF you are, changes that dynamic entirely. If they still 'just want to talk and have a friendly conversation,' it's up to him to keep it that way. If it gets unfriendly, by refusing, dodging, etc, then simply invoke your right to remain silent, citing HIS unpleasant demeanor should you need to do so later.

    Now, one can assert his/her rights any way s/he chooses. I like this method because it makes the LEO put his cards on the table and expose his attitude and agenda. It's impossible for you to be accused of refusing to cooperate, because it is he who did so. It keeps the ball in your court instead of giving him control to craft the words his own way.

    LEOs are not used to that. They enjoy and attack submissive people as a job. Expose that aggressive attitude by asking, showing that you already know the 'detainment' line is already being crossed. Remember, the act of detainment, like the act of self defense, is up to YOU and how an aggressive (dirty) LEO compels you to feel that you don't have a right to leave.

    Just like "I was in fear for my life, so I fired to stop th threat." Using the right words puts you on the right side of the law.

    I offer that, this method, while still not fool proof, is better than surrendering the definition of your detainment to a LEO. YOU determine if you are being detained, so don't ask someone who is not your friend and is not 'on your side.'

    Empirically, I have had only one response from LEOs since I started ding this: "Oh, no, I'm not detaining you!" Almost shocked at the realization that I know I'm being detained and THEY know they haven't got a good reason for it. Once they say that, conversation over, buh bye! Compared to the past where I would ask "Am I being detained" and they would say nothing while I stood there being self-detained expecting an answer I was never going to get from the filth.

    There is an anti-LEO undertone to this post, yes. Why? Because you would not have such an encounter with a good LEO. Only the dirty ones are going to try to detain someone for NOT breaking the law. Only the dirty ones are going to try to intimidate you. Only the dirty ones are going to press the issue and refuse to reciprocate in the "friendly conversation." Only the dirty ones are going to try to screw with you in the first place. That's what asserting your rights is about; the simple fact that your Rights should be RESPECTED, you shouldn't HAVE to assert them. If you have to assert them, the LEO is no longer 'just doing his job.' He's crossed the line and is no different from any other common thug.

    I suggest that asking "Why am I being detained" results in fewer unpleasant encounters, shorter encounters, and the exposure of a LEOs intent. Also, it provides you with evidence, should you need it. Asking a LEO "Am I being detained" is like asking a rapist "Are you raping me right now?" Do you really expect a straight answer? Why ask a question that doesn't serve a purpose? Don't ask what you already know. Ask him to justify what has already happened and is happening. He either incriminates himself, or lets you go. If he doesn't answer, the notion that you're 'just talking' goes right out the window, and it's his own fault.

    I just think it's better that way, and my experience with it has been overwhelmingly supportive of that theory. I am just one man, so if anyone else agrees with my logic, give it a whirl.

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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    May I have your permission to post your post on "Am I being detained?" giving you credit in this form "ixtow @ opencarry.org wrote:"?
    Speedy: LOCAL League VP, Pres, NWLOCAL Chapter
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

    NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV

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    Thumbs up

    You should definetely post this on bayou shooter in the law enforcement and military section.
    This site has been hijacked by leftists who attack opposition to further their own ends. Those who have never served this country and attack those who do are no longer worthy of my time or attention.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeroHog View Post
    May I have your permission to post your post on "Am I being detained?" giving you credit in this form "ixtow @ opencarry.org wrote:"?
    Sure, go ahead. Usefullness reaching as many people as possible is the whole point. ;-)

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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    Thank you very much!
    Speedy: LOCAL League VP, Pres, NWLOCAL Chapter
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

    NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV

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    The you know what has hit the fan.

    http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=47464
    This site has been hijacked by leftists who attack opposition to further their own ends. Those who have never served this country and attack those who do are no longer worthy of my time or attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRAMARINE View Post
    Now post it on defensivecarry.com! I would, but I've been banned for my views on the 2nd and 4th amendments. Something about to support and defend doesn't sit well with them there.

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    LMAO!!! I was going too, but someone beat me to it and they shut it down before I could even join the fray!!! What a bunch of jackasses! ROTFL


    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...eresting-point
    Last edited by NRAMARINE; 11-24-2010 at 10:09 PM.
    This site has been hijacked by leftists who attack opposition to further their own ends. Those who have never served this country and attack those who do are no longer worthy of my time or attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRAMARINE View Post
    LMAO!!! I was going too, but someone beat me to it and they shut it down before I could even join the fray!!! What a bunch of jackasses! ROTFL


    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...eresting-point
    There's a group of about six of us on different forums that have gotten banned there. They don't like hearing the truth about the very small minority of cops that are bad, and certainly won't tolerate standing up for your rights.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    While I generally, as a rule, avoid any confrontations wherever and whenever possible while carrying, I am also not of a mind to surrender my rights just to make anyone's day; LEO or otherwise. I am most pleased that ixtow has allowed us to use his post should we see the need. His reasoning is sound and his prime question does leave an offending officer at a loss for words and logic, mostly because he will not be expecting anything of this nature from someone he has detained.

    I also fail to see how this could in any way be construed as cop-bashing or some other similar label. There is no disrespect being shown and nothing which might appear to be argumentative or deliberately confrontational (ever wonder why it is us who are expected to be submissive and show all manner of respect towards one of our servants?).

    The folks on those other websites just continue to amplify my belief that some of in the gun culture are our own worse enemies. Why don't they see this? Do they not realize that the other side just loves this derision and division within our ranks? They needn't do any work when we are at each others throats giving reason to the general population that some of us gun people are just off the wall crazy.

    It has been my experience over the past 3 1/2 years of OC'ing that while there are no doubt a few who revel in the glow of adversity and contention, most all OC'ers I have encountered are decent and very friendly and respectful individuals who are more than willing to support all modes of carry and welcoming of such. Interesting.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 11-25-2010 at 08:17 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Best way to find out if you are being detained, and prove it in court later, is to walk away from the police - only if they forcefully seize you by command or force will you likley be able to bring a successful civil action against them later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRAMARINE View Post
    LMAO!!! I was going too, but someone beat me to it and they shut it down before I could even join the fray!!! What a bunch of jackasses! ROTFL


    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...eresting-point

    Wow. They called that "cop bashing?"
    Last edited by wrightme; 11-25-2010 at 09:28 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRAMARINE View Post
    And suppressed entirely over there....
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member HeroHog's Avatar
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    I can't believe thay did that! That was one place I expected it to get some traction! (bs.com)
    Speedy: LOCAL League VP, Pres, NWLOCAL Chapter
    AKA: Hero Hog, Dr. Speed, "The Brass Mangler" and "That fat, old, balding, Grey-bearded gimpy guy"

    I don't have NEAR enough ammo on hand. `nuff said.

    NRA Life Member, LSA, USN-DAV

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    Regular Member Lawful Aim's Avatar
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    Good post Mike. Although those actions would be helpful, it isn't necessary to take it that far. One only needs to believe that they are being detained. An un-rebutted affidavit stands as truth and when one presents the truth, how could a rebuttal stand?

    "Why am I being detained?" That certainly is a beneficial question to present but I would first put the detainer on notice that, I reserve all rights and that I don't consent to detainment. I might also add that I don't consent to conversation for cause. THEN, if the detainment continues, the detainer certainly is fully liable (no immunity) and the detainee is not, assuming the detainee's actions remain lawful.

    There is a maxim of law, All are equal under the law; http://freedom-school.com/getting-to-know-the-ucc.pdf
    If the one who is detaining doesn't come with the authority of a lawful and complete warrant obtained through a sworn affidavit then they are acting outside of their scope of duty and in a commercial capacity. And since they are acting in a commercial capacity, each is free to charge THEM for your time.

    Good afternoon. How may I help you today?
    [I need to see.../I need you to...]
    Thank You for your offer. I reserve all rights and charge __ insert amount__. ($2000 per minute?) Do you wish to proceed?

    Write out a receipt for your time and charges and hand it to them. If they laugh and crumple it up, so what? What happens when we laugh and crumple up their citations. One's receipt is certainly enforcible. Remember, ALL are equal under the law.
    Last edited by Lawful Aim; 11-25-2010 at 01:59 PM.

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    Yeah, that'll work.

    Folks, watch out for legal "advice" on a message board.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Best way to find out if you are being detained, and prove it in court later, is to walk away from the police - only if they forcefully seize you by command or force will you likley be able to bring a successful civil action against them later.
    No, because then you're resisting without violence. Resisting an illegal detention, sure. But that doesn't matter.

    Hell, they arrest you for the same for not giving them your Social Security Card.

    I chose to craft my words as I did, not for use in a later lawsuit, but more to avoid needing one. It is not my desire to TRY to get a cop to cross the line, but merely to show where the line is and let him cross it if he wants to.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Yeah, that'll work.

    Folks, watch out for legal "advice" on a message board.
    Ain't that the pot callin' the kettle black....

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Actually, once I feel all pertinent information has been exchanged, my modus operandi is to cordially say goodbye and leave. No "permission" expected or needed. Unless I am told otherwise, I am free to leave at any time I choose.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

    Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.(borrowed from RioKid)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    Actually, once I feel all pertinent information has been exchanged, my modus operandi is to cordially say goodbye and leave. No "permission" expected or needed. Unless I am told otherwise, I am free to leave at any time I choose.
    What pertinent information? If you are free to go, there is no pertinent information that need be exchanged. If you are required to give one scintilla of information, you are already being detained.

    When I was detained last week, one of three officers motioned me over (four, if you count the one approaching me from behind). That was a detention. No way I walk away. That's just asking for trouble.

    We immediately launched into a discussion of whether they had authority to detain me. I taught enough law that day to hand out degrees.

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    Founder's Club Member Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    What pertinent information? If you are free to go, there is no pertinent information that need be exchanged. If you are required to give one scintilla of information, you are already being detained.

    When I was detained last week, one of three officers motioned me over (four, if you count the one approaching me from behind). That was a detention. No way I walk away. That's just asking for trouble.

    We immediately launched into a discussion of whether they had authority to detain me. I taught enough law that day to hand out degrees.
    Much depends on the individual state law where you are when stopped - different state, different rules.

    In Virginia if an officer asks for your CHP, you are required to show him your permit and a valid state issued ID if you are CCing - per Virginia Code Section 18.2-308 Yes, I know that RAS et al applies too. Too as USER has explained it, one is required to verbally give their name and residence if requested after dark w/o other authority. Going to have to search for that post when I have more time.

    If I recall correctly, one must notify a NC LEO that you have a gun, when approached while in your vehicle. Remember that other states have similar laws.

    Then there is the Bloomberg rule that one must wear a sign visible from all sides when just thinking about carrying a gun. Thats faceious sarcasim folks.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    And, when asked for the CHP, one has been detained.

    That is my point. Once they ask you for info, you are not free to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    And, when asked for the CHP, one has been detained.

    That is my point. Once they ask you for info, you are not free to go.
    Well, not exactly. Once they demand info, you are not free to go.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Assert your will to leave, which makes it clear you do not consent to the encounter and you are being detained against your will.

    - I don't want to talk to you.
    - I don't want to stay here. Can I go?
    - I want to leave. Will you let me go?
    - Please let me go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Well, not exactly. Once they demand info, you are not free to go.
    Here, I found a nit. It needs to be picked!

    I get your point though. Officers can ask for anything. I should have used the word "demand." So..,

    And, when the CHP has been demanded, one has been detained.

    That is my point. Once they demand information, you are not free to go.

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