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Thread: New poll - should EMs be allowed to carry

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    New poll - should EMs be allowed to carry



    Should EMS providers carry weapons on the job?


    http://www.jems.com/poll/2010/should...ders-carry-wea

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    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I see no link to vote.

    As medic, with a valid LTCH, I would, to a point, and so would my partner, a woman. We are now allowed to carry on the property and leave it in the car without punishment. Before we couldn't but most did anyway.

    Some thoughts. Are town is fairly safe. More cho-mo's then robbers. We never put ourselves in harms way. We are taught to leave a egress and wait till seen is safe. At night we carry big 4D mag lights with us. We all carry knives. We have some good stuff that would put down a horse if needed. We wrestle with pts alot of the time but never felt threatened. I alsways check for weapons when patting down someone for assesment. Only had a time where a gun was found. Nothing to worry about. PD responds at our request, if they are in the area-esp at night, or if they know the address. Another thing to look at is the areas we get into. Trying to crawl into a car window the size of you PC screen would be impossible. If you take it off to work where do you secure it? Cant lock the ambulance and I'm not giving it to someone. Most of us do not wear coats in the winter for the same reason even when its 10 deg out. Cant work with it on.
    Some providers that work in the bad area of the next town over wear bullit proof vests.
    Not sure what I would do.

  3. #3
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    I see no link to vote.
    It's right there in blue in the OP - click on it.

    The link looks like this:
    http://www.jems.com/poll/2010/should...ders-carry-wea
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Ok, the 1st link was poll resualts. The second one i could vote on.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    Ok, the 1st link was poll resualts. The second one i could vote on.
    Very strange because I copied and pasted the 2nd one from the OP.
    If anybody else has such a problem, try the link below.

    Should EMS providers carry weapons on the job? - @ JEMS.com
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    http://connect.jems.com/forum/topics...age=1#comments

    This is the EMS topic that birthed the poll. Interesting comments. Registration required to comment.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Why not? And there are some very small, yet effective handguns out there. The .380 ACP comes to mind. Fits in a boot/ankle holster quite well.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Interesting subject. I'm thinking Taser at a minimum, especially with the close-in environment of an ambulance, that would at least give them drive-stun capabilities to accompany the probes if needed.

    A firearm means that there is the possibility of a round leaving the ambulance to an unknown and uncontrollable location and that's unacceptable. Life-flight would be the environment I cannot see either being a safe option.

    I'm torn. Taser at a minimum...unsure on a firearm.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Nothing would require an EM to carry a gun anymore than any other citizen should be, but it should be an option - of their choosing.

    There are times and places where tasers just are not effective

    Not they should save lives, not take them. Not that the bullet might exit the vehicle. Not that we are trained in controlling the patient. Not that they can call the police.

    EMs should have the option to chose to be responsible for their own safety - who else is?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Nothing would require an EM to carry a gun anymore than any other citizen should be, but it should be an option - of their choosing.

    There are times and places where tasers just are not effective

    Not they should save lives, not take them. Not that the bullet might exit the vehicle. Not that we are trained in controlling the patient. Not that they can call the police.

    EMs should have the option to chose to be responsible for their own safety - who else is?
    Cant save a life if he is flopping around trying to hurt me! We can call police if we need to. Plus there is a 'emergency' button on the radios we can push. Ours are deactivated. A few years ago it was fun to go around and push anothers button. It would send a warning to dispatch and their number would come up on there screen.

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    We just recently posted an Alabama AG opinion at alabamaopencarry.com that finds that city employees may not be barred from carrying by the city. So, if an EMS works directly for the city, he may carry just as other citizens may. If he works for a private company, that company may set its policies.

    The private company is free to restrict carry, and a potential employee is free to accept employment from the private company or not. That's Liberty.

    That being said, from a moral, not a legal, standpoint. EMS who want to carry should be allowed to do so. It would be reasonable for employers to require training since they are potentially liable for an EMS injuring or killing someone with that firearm while on duty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    We just recently posted an Alabama AG opinion at alabamaopencarry.com that finds that city employees may not be barred from carrying by the city. So, if an EMS works directly for the city, he may carry just as other citizens may. If he works for a private company, that company may set its policies.

    The private company is free to restrict carry, and a potential employee is free to accept employment from the private company or not. That's Liberty.

    That being said, from a moral, not a legal, standpoint. EMS who want to carry should be allowed to do so. It would be reasonable for employers to require training since they are potentially liable for an EMS injuring or killing someone with that firearm while on duty.
    Thats pretty interesting. EMS is now under Dept of homeland Security. You should see some faces when I ask for a homeland security discount.

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    Of course they should. Every law abiding citizen should be able to.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Of course they should. Although this is an instance that I would recommend CC rather than OC ... tough to do their very focused and difficult job while maintaining the situational awareness required to protect against their sidearm.

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    Let us see here..... "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
    Recent SCOTUS decisions in Heller and McDonald

    I assume that the EMS persons ARE "people" as describe in 2nd Amendment of US Constitution Bill of Rights....

    Yep, I can't find a "legal" reason to INFRINGE upon this fundamental right!

    With regard to the "poll" my preferred answer wasn't an option so I selected "Yes, as long as they have a permit", but permits SHOULD NOT BE REQUIRED TO EXERCISE A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 11-28-2010 at 02:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    snip....
    I assume that the EMS persons ARE "people" as describe in 2nd Amendment of US Constitution Bill of Rights....

    Yep, I can't find a "legal" reason to INFRINGE upon this fundamental right!
    Where an EMS entity is a private business, their vehicles are private property and the person an employee (incl volunteers) a different understanding and interplay of "rights" is required.

    Many (all?) states have laws permitting work place rules for employee conduct.

    Gun owners would IMHO need to be a class of protected individuals for this to have the over-riding effect.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Where an EMS entity is a private business, their vehicles are private property and the person an employee (incl volunteers) a different understanding and interplay of "rights" is required.

    Many (all?) states have laws permitting work place rules for employee conduct.

    Gun owners would IMHO need to be a class of protected individuals for this to have the over-riding effect.
    And I wish that in those locations where individual rights are RESTRICTED by either Property rights (where a business invites the public to their building to conduct business) or by employer imposed restrictions that those LIMITING the INDIVIDUAL FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS be held to be responsible for injuries that occur as a result of their actions--- not criminal as they haven't committed a crime but civilly. This way they can impose their rules IF THEY desire but they are assessed a penalty if INJURY OR DEATH RESULTS. Or they can allow an individual to exercise their fundamental rights without restriction and face NO penalty if a person is injured or kill by another committing a violent crime at that location.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 11-28-2010 at 06:51 PM.

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    Property rights don't restrict individual rights. They are the individual rights of the property owner. Property owners should be able to invite whatever segment of the population they choose to associate with--even if that segment does not include me because I choose to carry.

    We need to respect the rights of others as much as we expect ours to be respected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Where an EMS entity is a private business, their vehicles are private property and the person an employee (incl volunteers) a different understanding and interplay of "rights" is required.

    Many (all?) states have laws permitting work place rules for employee conduct.

    Gun owners would IMHO need to be a class of protected individuals for this to have the over-riding effect.
    There are very few 'private' EMS services. There will be less next year. This bussiness has high operating cost with minimal $$ income. Actually, I cant think of any private EMS providers. Most if not all recieve funding from their prospective cities, county, or towns also. Now there are ambulance transport services that are private but not a 'emergency' service. Theres a differance 'tween a emergencey and non emergent service.
    Ind just passed a law that prohibits any employer to refuse to have a employee keep a firearm in their vehicle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deepdiver View Post
    Of course they should. Although this is an instance that I would recommend CC rather than OC ... tough to do their very focused and difficult job while maintaining the situational awareness required to protect against their sidearm.
    I diagree. Ourr saftey is first, your pt is second. We never let our gaurd down. The time we do is when we will get bitten.

    I agree with the CC option. I'd wear a ankle holster if I could. No way I can craw into a car with a hip or shoulder holster on.

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    Regular Member Ivan Sample's Avatar
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    No!

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    While I agree that we should be given the option I also agree that when you work for a private company that they have the right to dictate the terms and you have the right to accept the job or not. Here in CT MOST Ambulance companies are private. AMR, Hunter's, Nelson. Champion, the list goes on while they have contracts with the cities they serve they are privately owned businesses and while it is our right to keep and bear arms it is their right to refuse to employ someone for any legal reason they choose.

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