Encased, and in a pocket...Concealed or not?

IF there are conflicting laws/statutes couldnt one use that as a defense before a court?

GlockRDH said:

IF there are conflicting laws/statutes couldnt one use that as a defense before a court?

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Against what charge in particular, what statute?

It is illegal to carry a concealed weapon - period. Were you hypothetically charged with that, § 941.23? Being in a GF School Zone is hardly an argument - a defense - from "conflict."

The conflict is widely acknowledged with the RKABA and the WI Constitutions. But the laws are what they are until they are changed.

Doug Huffman said:

Against what charge in particular, what statute?

It is illegal to carry a concealed weapon - period. Were you hypothetically charged with that, § 941.23? Being in a GF School Zone is hardly an argument - a defense - from "conflict."

The conflict is widely acknowledged with the RKABA and the WI Constitutions. But the laws are what they are until they are changed.

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What Doug said, unfortunately.:banghead:

imo if you put the gun in a gun case and carry it in your hand you likely won't get into trouble, if you do get into trouble I would also assume a good lawyer will get you out of any trouble, but thats not law, just opinion.

I understand the laws conflict but I carry a pistol in my car on the front seat in a gun case and have been pulled over numerous times and no officer has said anything about it. There will always be leo's who go with anything they feel should be law and in that case it really don't matter what the law is until your in court. If you explain to a judge or a jury what you were doing and your intentions your "likely" going to be fine, but not always.

Beretta-m9 said:

imo if you put the gun in a gun case and carry it in your hand you likely won't get into trouble, if you do get into trouble I would also assume a good lawyer will get you out of any trouble, but thats not law, just opinion.

I understand the laws conflict but I carry a pistol in my car on the front seat in a gun case and have been pulled over numerous times and no officer has said anything about it. There will always be leo's who go with anything they feel should be law and in that case it really don't matter what the law is until your in court. If you explain to a judge or a jury what you were doing and your intentions your "likely" going to be fine, but not always.

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I agree, just the OP asked if it was legal, technically not.

And when he is cited then this public statement - revealed during discovery - will make any defense argument pretty hollow. Guilty, your Honor, as charged.

Wisc. Stats. Ann. said:

§ 941.23 Annotation: A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).

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The 'conflict' as i see it is...the newly purchased gun..cased and unloaded being carried under your arm would qualify as 'concealed'... and if thats 'concealed' one would have no way to technically take it from the store...is that correct?

GlockRDH said:

The 'conflict' as i see it is...the newly purchased gun..cased and unloaded being carried under your arm would qualify as 'concealed'... and if thats 'concealed' one would have no way to technically take it from the store...is that correct?

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Exactly. Technically the knives in your kitchen drawer. the guns in your safe, the machete in a toolbox of your truck are all examples of technically concealed dangerous weapons. This was the topic of discussion I believe in the Hamden case of the WSC and they noted that some legislative remedy would be required. Someone else may need to correct the case here for me as memory is a little foggy. Leo and judges enjoy discretion, we all take our chances.

For all you people who are stating that having an unloaded, properly cased firearm in your possession is illegal concealment, could you please explain the line in the GFSZ law where it specifically states that you can have a properly encased, unloaded firearm in a school zone, and even on school property!

Splain that lucy!!

Nutczak said:

For all you people who are stating that having an unloaded, properly cased firearm in your possession is illegal concealment, could you please explain the line in the GFSZ law where it specifically states that you can have a properly encased, unloaded firearm in a school zone, and even on school property!

Splain that lucy!!

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I guess the question is, which law takes precedence?

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

Mugenlude said:

I'm headed to the grocery store, it's nice outside, so I walk. I'm walking down the public sidewalk OC'g my pistol like normal. I look ahead and notice a school up the road. Now I don't want to break the law, but I still want to get some groceries.

I stop on the sidewalk, unholster my pistol, unload it, place the unloaded gun in it's zipped pistol case.

Now what do I do?

1. Can I place the pistol case in my backpack without it being considered as carrying a concealed weapon?
2. Can I place the pistol case under my arm (in my arm pit) and continue without it being considered as carrying a concealed weapon?
3. Can I hold the pistol case in my hand as I walk and continue without it being considered as carrying a concealed weapon?

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Technically, no, no and no.

Putting a weapon out of normal view (in a case) is a concealed weapon. Only exceptions so far by the Wisconsin Supreme Court have been in your house and at your owned place of business.

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Thanks to Paul and Doug for the reply... this is the answer I was expecting because of the way WI laws are written.

Comparing it to the issues with concealed in a vehicles was a good one. Based on that, as someone else mentioned above, people aren't being arrested for firearms in their cars while going hunting, or leaving the local range/gun store... so that leads me to believe that the majority of LEO aren't thinking that unloaded and encased is considered concealed.

Does that mean no one will ever be arrested for concealing a weapon while it's unloaded and encased, no, I'm sure some DA somewhere could manage to do that. However, do we know of anyone that has actually been charged with this? I haven't heard of this happening to anyone in the 12 years that I've been involved with firearms in local ranges & on the gun forums.

Personally, if I was out on a walk and I saw a school or had to go into a prohibited area, I would likely apply #2 to the situation... I would look to unload and encase in the most discrete way possible, which isn't always that easy, but I would do my best.

No Problem Ricky

Nutczak said:

For all you people who are stating that having an unloaded, properly cased firearm in your possession is illegal concealment, could you please explain the line in the GFSZ law where it specifically states that you can have a properly encased, unloaded firearm in a school zone, and even on school property!

Splain that lucy!!

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You are dealing with two different statutes. The question is can you comply with both statutes simultaneously. The answer is yes. 948.605 provides exceptions to itself. It does not provide an exception to 941.23. Thus if you carry as you described you would not be charged with violating 948.05 but you could be charged with violating 941.23. Now if you had a transparent gun case, that might work. Of course in Madison, you would get hit with disorderly conduct.

I really don't think encasing a gun in a "gun" case is concealing it.

A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with
a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565
(1986).
To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).


A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute?
and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
arms?

If it were me walking into an area i was not allowed to carry I would put the weapon in it's case and carry it in plain view. I think the above would justify doing just that.

Nutczak said:

For all you people who are stating that having an unloaded, properly cased firearm in your possession is illegal concealment, could you please explain the line in the GFSZ law where it specifically states that you can have a properly encased, unloaded firearm in a school zone, and even on school property!

Splain that lucy!!

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(2) POSSESSION OF FIREARM IN SCHOOL ZONE. (a) Any individual
who knowingly possesses a firearm at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone is
guilty of a Class I felony.
(b) Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm:1. On private property not part of school grounds;
2. If the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so
by a political subdivision of the state or bureau of alcohol, tobacco
and firearms in which political subdivision the school zone is
located, and the law of the political subdivision requires that,
before an individual may obtain such a license, the law enforcement
authorities of the political subdivision must verify that the
individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
3. That is not loaded and is:
a. Encased; or
b. In a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

im pretty sure those are the lines that say it.

Beretta-m9 said:

I really don't think encasing a gun in a "gun" case is concealing it.

A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with
a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565
(1986).
To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).


A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute?
and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
arms?

If it were me walking into an area i was not allowed to carry I would put the weapon in it's case and carry it in plain view. I think the above would justify doing just that.

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Thanks.