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Thread: Question about Utah CFP in Michigan

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    Question about Utah CFP in Michigan

    Hello all, I'm trying to find some answers for my family members who are relocating to Michigan. I realize this forum is of course geared towards OC, but I also recognize the wealth of knowlege found here for both OC and CC.

    My BIL was told that he cannot carry concealed in Michigan because he does not have a current Utah Drivers License to go along with his Utah CFP. He's originally from Utah, went to med school in WV, did residency in FL, and is now a Dr. in Michigan and currently has a Florida DL. I'm not sure who (of what authority) told him that he can't carry due to his lack of a Utah DL.

    From my research, Michigan "recognizes" the Utah CFP. I cannot find it written anywhere that one must have the DL of the permitted state of the CFP. Make sense? I haven't had time to pour through the Michigan Codes, but thought that some of the minds on here already versed in the codes could help.

    Thoughts, comments... ?

    Thanks

    -Jason

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    As I doubt he is a legal resident of Utah his CFP is useless as MI does not recognize none resident Concealed Pistol Licenses.

    He would have to apply for a MI CPL once he establishes residency.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    As I doubt he is a legal resident of Utah his CFP is useless as MI does not recognize none resident Concealed Pistol Licenses.

    He would have to apply for a MI CPL once he establishes residency.
    dead on correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    As I doubt he is a legal resident of Utah his CFP is useless as MI does not recognize none resident Concealed Pistol Licenses.

    He would have to apply for a MI CPL once he establishes residency.
    Out of curiosity how long has this been in law? When I took my Utah CFP class (I'm a UT resident FWIW) in Dec of 2009, Michigan was on the list of States that "recognize" the UT permit. I'm not saying they have reciprocity with Utah's permit, but they recognize the permit.

    From what I'm finding in researching this, MI recognizes 'resident permits' meaning the permit is required to be issued to someone who is a resident of that State - so both DL and CFP need to be issued from the same State.
    Last edited by SAMI; 11-15-2010 at 06:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMI View Post
    Out of curiosity how long has this been in law? When I took my Utah CFP class (I'm a UT resident FWIW) in Dec of 2009, Michigan was on the list of States that "recognize" the UT permit. I'm not saying they have reciprocity with Utah's permit, but they recognize the permit.

    From what I'm finding in researching this, MI recognizes 'resident permits' meaning the permit is required to be issued to someone who is a resident of that State - so both DL and CFP need to be issued from the same State.
    that is correct and you stated he has a Florida DL and Utah CPL

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    Right on, so the missing piece of the puzzle for legal carry in my BIL's case is that he gets a FL CFP to accompany his FL DL. Correct?

    ... Must add, they have every intention to move back to FL asap, so becoming a MI resident is not an option.
    Last edited by SAMI; 11-15-2010 at 06:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMI View Post
    Right on, so the missing piece of the puzzle for legal carry in my BIL's case is that he gets a FL CFP to accompany his FL DL. Correct?

    ... Must add, they have every intention to move back to FL asap, so becoming a MI resident is not an option.
    Yes and its easy, he can take his classes here, and mail them to the county he is a resident in in Florida, along with a certified copy of fingerprints, and a picture. They will mail him his Florida CFP. (NRA instructor ofcourse, make sure he contacts the Flordia, AG office, to make sure that this is acceptable, but according to their web site it is).

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/florida.pdf
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 11-15-2010 at 07:39 PM.
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    Before BIL

    shells out the money and effort for a FL CCW, he ought to realize that he is a resident of Michigan (if he is indeed working as a physician in the state). Driver's Licenses and other indicia can be useful but are not dispositive. In fact he may end up in trouble for not having a MI DL (and auto registration, if applicable). So if he moved to Michigan to work (for an indefinite period of time - leaving ASAP doesn't cut it), scrap UT, FL, WV, etc. with regard to government-issued documents (unless there is some benefit to having a NR UT or FL) and go Wolverine with everything. How long has he been in MI? What is keeping him there? If he carries on the basis of a non-MI CPL and things go south, he will have extra problems. For a MI resident (as determined by a court, not BIL), a CPL from another state is about as useful as a Radio Shack Battery of the Month Card.

    If he is truly a FL resident and is in MI for a clearly temporary purpose, then the FL CCW might work. Incidentally, why didn't he get one while in FL? Much easier (and cheaper). Of course, FL might argue that he is a NR because of where he lives, so perhaps he should wait until he returns to FL. Life is complicated enough, BIL ought to simplify what he can (and do the right thing as well). Let us know what happens.
    Last edited by apjonas; 11-15-2010 at 09:42 PM. Reason: covering all the bases

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Florida understands that about a third of their residents live in their state for only 51% of the time or even less. This is because they have no income tax, so lots of people "live" in Florida, also, MANY MANY people from Michigan, Ohio, and the north eastern states, go for fall and winter. When you renew you drivers license on line, you list your address on your drivers license, then your mailing address, which can be anywhere in the world, and that is where they mail it. Also their licenses are good for 8 years, and only get your pic taken every other time. So yep only a pic every 16 years on a Florida drivers license.
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    shells out the money and effort for a FL CCW, he ought to realize that he is a resident of Michigan (if he is indeed working as a physician in the state). Driver's Licenses and other indicia can be useful but are not dispositive. In fact he may end up in trouble for not having a MI DL (and auto registration, if applicable). So if he moved to Michigan to work (for an indefinite period of time - leaving ASAP doesn't cut it), scrap UT, FL, WV, etc. with regard to government-issued documents (unless there is some benefit to having a NR UT or FL) and go Wolverine with everything. How long has he been in MI? What is keeping him there? If he carries on the basis of a non-MI CPL and things go south, he will have extra problems. For a MI resident (as determined by a court, not BIL), a CPL from another state is about as useful as a Radio Shack Battery of the Month Card.

    If he is truly a FL resident and is in MI for a clearly temporary purpose, then the FL CCW might work. Incidentally, why didn't he get one while in FL? Much easier (and cheaper). Of course, FL might argue that he is a NR because of where he lives, so perhaps he should wait until he returns to FL. Life is complicated enough, BIL ought to simplify what he can (and do the right thing as well). Let us know what happens.
    My brother and sister are both legit FL residents and have a house in FL, one WV, and now another in MI. They visit the FL house as much as possible because anyone would much rather be in FL than MI.. If you disagree you're lying. They rent out the WV house, so they don't go there for anything other than landlord responsibilities. Why bother getting a FL permit when you already have a UT permit? FL and UT have a recipricating agreement, so the UT permit is just as good as the FL permit, regardless of whether residence is in FL or UT. They won't be in MI for more than 3 years, then it's back to FL perminently.
    Last edited by SAMI; 11-16-2010 at 12:00 PM.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Unfortunately if they spend 51% of the time in MI then they need to have MI cpl's.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMI View Post
    My brother and sister are both legit FL residents and have a house in FL, one WV, and now another in MI. They visit the FL house as much as possible because anyone would much rather be in FL than MI.. If you disagree you're lying. They rent out the WV house, so they don't go there for anything other than landlord responsibilities. Why bother getting a FL permit when you already have a UT permit? FL and UT have a recipricating agreement, so the UT permit is just as good as the FL permit, regardless of whether residence is in FL or UT. They won't be in MI for more than 3 years, then it's back to FL perminently.
    Residency is an issue which is determined by a number of facts... here is a court case detailing the issues involved. Also, I think Florida allows one to be a "resident" of Florida by filing a form/affidavit with the county and uses this to determine residency.
    I would also say that although MI may have the ability to determine if someone is a MICHIGAN resident, I don't know what right MI has to determine if someone is a resident of any particular state... just that they are or are not a MI resident.
    Have a look at this and this should help you...

    http://www.constitution.org/2ll/bard...v_williams.txt
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Unfortunately if they spend 51% of the time in MI then they need to have MI cpl's.
    Cite
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMI View Post
    Right on, so the missing piece of the puzzle for legal carry in my BIL's case is that he gets a FL CFP to accompany his FL DL. Correct?

    ... Must add, they have every intention to move back to FL asap, so becoming a MI resident is not an option.
    I would consider doing this, see the case listed above. I think FL is pretty simple for a carry license if one has a license from elsewhere (could be wrong, though)
    Last edited by DrTodd; 11-16-2010 at 12:24 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd, thanks for the great info. I've mentioned to them that they ought to get the FL permits, and look into possibly registering as seasonal residents of FL.. If that would atleast help some paper trail of them being FL residents, but being in MI for a few years. That way to a court, in the unfortunate event of a trial involving SD, there would atleast be some evidence proving they tried to keep everything legal and legit. They're great people, no criminal records, and he hasn't even carried in MI yet because he wants to be 100% certain on how he can do so legally - without having to become fulltime MI residents.... If possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    Unfortunately if they spend 51% of the time in MI then they need to have MI cpl's.
    Is there somewhere this is written other than in your post? Perhaps somewhere official?

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    Your residence is where you get your mail.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    OK here is what the MI treasury Dept says about residency.

    Chapter 2. Residency
    1. Who is a Michigan resident?
    You are a Michigan resident if Michigan is your
    permanent home. Your permanent home is the place
    you intend to return to whenever you go away. A
    temporary absence from Michigan, such as
    spending the winter in another state, does not make
    you a part-year resident.
    2. What determines principal residence?
    Michigan law defines principal residence as the one
    place where a person has his or her true, fixed, and
    permanent home to which, whenever absent he or
    she intends to return and that shall continue as a
    principal residence until another principal residence
    is established. In order to verify a persons claim
    that a particular property is a principal residence,
    Treasury will accept various documents that, taken
    together, establish that the person or persons filing
    the claim occupy the property as a principal
    residence. Examples include drivers license, voter
    registration card, cancelled checks listing the
    property address, statements such as medical, bank
    or charge accounts, income tax records indicating
    the mailing address and insurance policies. No one
    of these factors taken alone is controlling over any
    other factor. Documentation needs to verify
    occupancy between the periods of January 1 to May
    1 of each year.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/2856_11014_7.pdf

    Here is what the SOS says

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/so...8_222146_7.pdf

    As for the 51% thing that might be wrong... I have too much info in my head.. anyway I hope the above documents help.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Your residence is where you get your mail.

    Many people have PO boxes... I doubt very much they live there though
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Thanks for the additional info autosurgeon..

    I'm going to provide them with that info and let them decide what they're doing.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMI View Post
    Thanks for the additional info autosurgeon..

    I'm going to provide them with that info and let them decide what they're doing.

    No problem.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Let's Start with the Basics

    1. Why is BIL living in MI at all?
    2. Which state BIL thinks he's a resident of is not unimportant but not determinative.
    3. What do you think would happen if BIL told FL that he's a resident of FL but is carrying on a UT permit?
    4. Now it is possible to be a legal resident of FL for part of the year and MI for the rest. The question then becomes at the point in time of interest, where was the residency. Again the things that will be looked at (licensing, taxes, voting, physical presence, etc.) will decide. Last time I checked MI had an income tax, FL did not. Income taxes are one thing a state can get pretty testy about, particularly with a highly paid professional. If BIL is doing the tax evasion tango, carry permits are going to be the least of his worries. A few years ago a Northwest pilot got clobbered by Minnesota. I guess he's out of prison now.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    If he is planning on spending YEARS here, I would say get a Michigan DL, and a Michigan CPL, see if he can get his CPL expediated because he has his Utah Carry Permit. That seems to me to only way to be LEGAL! The only reason I suggested the Florida route before is besause you made it sound like he wasn't going to be here that long, but a few years is that long, anything over 6 months is that long in the eyes of the law... At least thats how I understand it.
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    apjonas, you come across as condescending and it's getting old. Thanks but no thanks for your lesson on, "The Basics".. Scoot along and pester someone else with your attitude.

    I've told my SIL & BIL to review the information that autosurgeon posted; which points to my family members that are newly nested in MI to becoming MI residents for the 3 years that they will be there. The facts are all there.

    Thanks,

    Jason

  25. #25
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    according to michigan.gov


    You are considered a Michigan resident if you have a permanent home or employment in Michigan with the intention of remaining in the state

    I could find no # of day needed for michigan

    if you plan on getting a Divorce, hmmmmmmmm, sorry lost my train of though, ahh if you are planning on getting a Divorce you need to be a resident of Michigan for 180 days maybe thats what most people think of a residency requirement
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