Winter Carry & Ammunition v. Summer Carry & Ammunition

amlevin · Nov 16, 2010

If we're only talking winter clothes and not body armor, then don't worry about JHP penetration through winter clothing. It may be thick but just remember, insulation is mostly air. GDHP's and Golden Saber's are capable of penetrating several "Volumes" of wet phone books so they'll be more than effective on an average human just wearing winter clothing. There's no need to carry a spare mag loaded with FMJ's, carry FMJ's, or "Dutch Load" your mags (alternate FMJ.HP's) just because it's winter.

Police Departments don't so why would you feel the necessity?

Just load up with a good defensive round that shoots well in your pistol and then hope you never have to use it.

If you really want to make sure that you "End the Fight", just practice regularly shooting "Two Center or Mass followed by Two CNS (head shot)" Do this enough so it's instinctive and "penetration" is of little or no concern.

Grapeshot · Nov 16, 2010

amlevin said:
If we're only talking winter clothes and not body armor, then don't worry about JHP penetration through winter clothing. It may be thick but just remember, insulation is mostly air. GDHP's and Golden Saber's are capable of penetrating several "Volumes" of wet phone books so they'll be more than effective on an average human just wearing winter clothing. There's no need to carry a spare mag loaded with FMJ's, carry FMJ's, or "Dutch Load" your mags (alternate FMJ.HP's) just because it's winter.

Police Departments don't so why would you feel the necessity?

Just load up with a good defensive round that shoots well in your pistol and then hope you never have to use it.

If you really want to make sure that you "End the Fight", just practice regularly shooting "Two Center or Mass followed by Two CNS (head shot)" Do this enough so it's instinctive and "penetration" is of little or no concern.

In my experience, most LEA buy based on price, not effectiveness and their stop rate is generally acknowledged to not be that good.

Many (most?) hollow points do not reliably/consistently open up when the hollow portion is filled with clothing fiber. Notable exceptions to this are Corbon DPX and Federal HST.

Yes, hitting your target is first and foremost with whatever you have - we're talking about fine tuning that

amlevin · Nov 16, 2010

Grapeshot said:
In my experience, most LEA buy based on price, not effectiveness and their stop rate is generally acknowledged to not be that good.

Many (most?) hollow points do not reliably/consistently open up when the hollow portion is filled with clothing fiber. Notable exceptions to this are Corbon DPX and Federal HST.

Yes, hitting your target is first and foremost with whatever you have - we're talking about fine tuning that

Actually, out here on the "Great Western Frontier" the police departments actually rely on testing ammo. Some tests have been carried out on local ranges and found HP's to perform quite well for the purpose they are intended.

As recent news events can attest, Police Ammo is VERY effective, even to the point of being LETHAL.

Grapeshot · Nov 16, 2010

amlevin said:
Actually, out here on the "Great Western Frontier" the police departments actually rely on testing ammo. Some tests have been carried out on local ranges and found HP's to perform quite well for the purpose they are intended.

As recent news events can attest, Police Ammo is VERY effective, even to the point of being LETHAL.

I was born and raised in one of the "frontier states" and mean you no slight.

Never said LEA did not test ammo. In the selection process, I can assure you that a majority of departments do not have the benefit of the best, most effective ammunition. Too many times the 'this is good enough" wins out because cost IS a major factor - the same economic reasons that departments do not train more than they do. Most departments spend a minimum necessary on ammo - officers desirous of more range time do so at their own expense regularly. The money adds up and compromises are made in all areas.

Any caliber or loading can be lethal, even the lowly .22 short. Granted that there are "elite" units that are supplied with match grade, performance munitions selected for specific purposes.

golddigger14s · Nov 16, 2010

Leatherneck said:
That's some good info! I've been meaning to get another box soon. May have to go with these.

One question I have:
In the video he says that they are designed for short barrel type carry pieces. There shouldn't be a problem using these in the standard 4.5" or 5" barrel, right?

I'd call 4.5-5" short, especially compared to my Hi-Point Carbine

.

amlevin · Nov 16, 2010

Grapeshot said:
I was born and raised in one of the "frontier states" and mean you no slight.

Never said LEA did not test ammo. In the selection process, I can assure you that a majority of departments do not have the benefit of the best, most effective ammunition. Too many times the 'this is good enough" wins out because cost IS a major factor - the same economic reasons that departments do not train more than they do. Most departments spend a minimum necessary on ammo - officers desirous of more range time do so at their own expense regularly. The money adds up and compromises are made in all areas.

Any caliber or loading can be lethal, even the lowly .22 short. Granted that there are "elite" units that are supplied with match grade, performance munitions selected for specific purposes.

Evidently the "Good Enough" ammo our PD's are buying here in Washington is definitely "Good Enough". As for costs, when one is purchasing tens of thousands of rounds, LE Ammo is often less expensive than what is available to us mere mortals.

When you mention "Elite Units", then we are talking .223 and .308 ammo. Whole different game than with handguns.

Grapeshot · Nov 16, 2010

amlevin said:
When you mention "Elite Units", then we are talking .223 and .308 ammo. Whole different game than with handguns.

Just like in some service units: one standard for the grunts and another for the teams. Think 9mm FMJ vs .45 ACP HP

I do understand what you are saying though.

bwboley · Nov 17, 2010

i carry fiocchi 124 grain xtp JHP •Muzzle Velocity: 1290 fps was like $22 for 50 rounds. I have both 8 round mags full with it and I use fed fmj for target at $10 im happy lol

amlevin · Nov 17, 2010

joeroket said:
Well I do not worry about it much. The theory is that hollow points will start expanding before it reaches th body in heavy clothing, especially in down filled coats, and there will not be enough penetration to stop the attacker. Personally I don't think it is a big enough issue to have different ammo for winter than I do for summer.

In actuality, the HP's tend to cut some of the clothing like a cookie cutter which plugs the cavity. The bullet does not expand as rapidly, or as much, as a result. Tests conducted by various police departments around the country, using FBI protocols, show that bullets such as the GDHP will actually penetrate more when going through the layer of heavy denim over ballistic gel than over bare gel alone. In one test a .357 Sig GDHP penetrated bare gel just over 14" and expanded to over 5/8". Through the Denim, it penetrated 16" and only expanded to a little over 1/2".

With performance like this, it makes no sense to carry a FMJ Round Nose bullet just because of the possibility of heavy winter clothing. The HP's penetrate well enough and certainly expand more than an FMJ.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Butte_WBW_5_27_09.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/Ft_CollinsPoliceDpmt.pdf
One thing to consider about bulky winter clothing. Your shots need to be close to the center of mass as any shots to the periphery might just pass through clothing. An average person of 5' 10", 175 lbs, suddenly looks more like a wide body football player when wearing a down parka. Unfortunately a shot that only hits coat won't stop him. A shot in the middle won't care about the coat.

xxx.jakk.xxx · Nov 17, 2010

amlevin said:
An average person of 5' 10", 175 lbs, suddenly looks more like a wide body football player when wearing a down parka. Unfortunately a shot that only hits coat won't stop him. A shot in the middle won't care about the coat.

It shows that you're willing to take them down and they might reconsider their actions. If I were shot at and hit in the jacket instead of my body I'd think "divine intervention" and probably poop myself...

joeroket · Nov 17, 2010

amlevin said:
In actuality, the HP's tend to cut some of the clothing like a cookie cutter which plugs the cavity. The bullet does not expand as rapidly, or as much, as a result. Tests conducted by various police departments around the country, using FBI protocols, show that bullets such as the GDHP will actually penetrate more when going through the layer of heavy denim over ballistic gel than over bare gel alone. In one test a .357 Sig GDHP penetrated bare gel just over 14" and expanded to over 5/8". Through the Denim, it penetrated 16" and only expanded to a little over 1/2".

With performance like this, it makes no sense to carry a FMJ Round Nose bullet just because of the possibility of heavy winter clothing. The HP's penetrate well enough and certainly expand more than an FMJ.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/Butte_WBW_5_27_09.pdf
http://le.atk.com/pdf/Ft_CollinsPoliceDpmt.pdf
One thing to consider about bulky winter clothing. Your shots need to be close to the center of mass as any shots to the periphery might just pass through clothing. An average person of 5' 10", 175 lbs, suddenly looks more like a wide body football player when wearing a down parka. Unfortunately a shot that only hits coat won't stop him. A shot in the middle won't care about the coat.

Yea I have seen all the studies on JHP's fired into heavy clothing. They actually penetrate further than just the gel. I just didn't mention it but rather mentioned the theory that the novice/general population have about them. Your post reflects exactly why I do worry about my JHP's in winter.

Grapeshot · Nov 17, 2010

joeroket said:
Yea I have seen all the studies on JHP's fired into heavy clothing. They actually penetrate further than just the gel. I just didn't mention it but rather mentioned the theory that the novice/general population have about them. Your post reflects exactly why I do worry about my JHP's in winter.

Excellent sources of comparison for penetration and expansion - select caliber and scroll down:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/ammodata.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.45ACP

massivedesign · Nov 17, 2010

bwboley said:
i carry fiocchi 124 grain xtp JHP •Muzzle Velocity: 1290 fps was like $22 for 50 rounds. I have both 8 round mags full with it and I use fed fmj for target at $10 im happy lol

That's 458 ft/lbs of stopping power (at the muzzle). Yup, that'll do it!

G20-IWB24/7 · Nov 18, 2010

While it typically goes against my "don't worry about the details and make accurate hits with a service caliber"-argument, I usually carry a 9mm (I favor my G19 or a Kahr) during the warmer months and move to .40S&W/10mm/.45ACP during the winter.

The practice of carrying FMJ's as a defense against heavier clothing is not necessary. When a modern JHP is 'plugged' with wool, denim, or another dense fabric, it will act like FMJ ball ammo. But, if it happens to not get plugged, then you have the benefit of the JHP in expansion and energy dump.

Winter Carry & Ammunition v. Summer Carry & Ammunition

amlevin

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Grapeshot

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amlevin

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Grapeshot

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golddigger14s

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amlevin

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Grapeshot

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bwboley

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amlevin

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xxx.jakk.xxx

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joeroket

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Grapeshot

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massivedesign

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G20-IWB24/7

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