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Thread: Question on use of force for you to ponder and give me input on

  1. #1
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    Question on use of force for you to ponder and give me input on

    Ok, so... I watched some black guy get slammed to the ground by a cop out in front of my place (ran from a traffic stop up the street). When his brother and mother showed up, and refused to stop walking towards the cop, the mother got slammed into a BMW and cuffed. Then the brother took off his gloves, and in a pathetic attempt to look badass, ...strutted around in the street spewing out curses and threats, another cop car rolled up. He got slammed onto the hood and cuffed as well X-D.

    well, anyways, there was a moment when i was very tense because the 2 people were coming up on the cop and in his personal space, as he was ordering them to back up, as well as cuffing the first perp.

    Would i be in the right to run in and draw on someone if the two people jumped the cop?

    In other words, 2 on 1....

    What does it take to be in fear for another person's life?

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    So what does a person's skin color have to do with this incident?

    Most likely help was on the way. I would have offered my assistance to the officer until his back-up arrived. My weapon would have stayed holstered unless I feared someone life was in danger. Three people acting stupid does not do it for me to draw.

    It was once said, "for every action there should be a equal and opposite reaction".

    Also from the officers perspective has does he know you are not some crazy guy just like the three he is dealing with. I suggest you always ask the officer before offering any assistance. Perhaps if you were to witness this in the future you first action should be to call 9-1-1 to make sure the officer has help on the way.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Are you serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post

    Would i be in the right to run in and draw on someone if the two people jumped the cop?
    "Run in and draw on someone?"

    Did the police officer have HIS weapon -- gun, taser, baton -- drawn? Did it seem like he NEEDED help? Simply and loudly saying, "Officer do you need help?" would most likely make the "perps" reconsider and, as others have mentioned, if the officer thought he was in jeopardy he would have already called for backup and the area was about to be flooded by brother officers...

    You standing there with a drawn gun would have made you their immediate target....

    And, as the prior poster asked, what did the color of the people matter? I hate it when people think they have to inject race into a story, when the incident had nothing whatsoever to do with the race of the participants. Unfortunately, this happens all too often. For some reason people feel it necessary to describe people in racial or ethnic terms when telling a story, as if it made a difference.
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 11-17-2010 at 08:28 AM.

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    Ok, so... I watched some black guy get slammed to the ground by a cop out in front of my place (ran from a traffic stop up the street). When his brother and mother showed up, and refused to stop walking towards the cop, the mother got slammed into a BMW and cuffed. Then the brother took off his gloves, and in a pathetic attempt to look badass, ...strutted around in the street spewing out curses and threats, another cop car rolled up. He got slammed onto the hood and cuffed as well X-D.

    well, anyways, there was a moment when i was very tense because the 2 people were coming up on the cop and in his personal space, as he was ordering them to back up, as well as cuffing the first perp.

    Would i be in the right to run in and draw on someone if the two people jumped the cop?

    In other words, 2 on 1....

    What does it take to be in fear for another person's life?
    Do you mean like if the cop was overpowerd and needed help? I have seen COPS TV SHOW where the camera men jump in(2 of them) to help the cop, and other times aswell. I think its called citizen assist? I do not know.. I think you mean, if the cop is on the ground being beating to death by some evil thug punk, then yes I think you should help, or its required?
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 11-17-2010 at 08:56 AM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Fear for one's life is irrelevant. You've really got to know what you're doing when you interfere with an altercation - when the two relatives were being arrested for obstruction of justice, you were contemplating not only obstruction of justice but assault with a deadly weapon.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Question

    On the other side of the coin what if you witness an officer savagely beating someone. What if that person's life is in danger?

    What if the cop is wrong and it costs that citizen their life. It happens more often than you'd think... or maybe not.

    It is dangerous indeed to be in that position.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    I decided a while ago to defend nobody against death or great bodily harm but myself (especially if they seem not to want to be bothered by that responsibility) and avoid this sort of problem entirely.
    Last edited by t33j; 11-17-2010 at 01:19 PM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    I decided a while ago to defend nobody against death or great bodily harm but myself (especially if they seem not to want to be bothered by that responsibility) and avoid this sort of problem entirely.
    IIUYC, you would stand by an allow a person to be bludgeoned to death when they could not defend themselves and were presenting no danger to the person doing the bludgeoning ... even though you had the right and means to intervene.... Yes?

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    IIUYC, you would stand by an allow a person to be bludgeoned to death when they could not defend themselves and were presenting no danger to the person doing the bludgeoning ... even though you had the right and means to intervene.... Yes?
    Not exactly - I'd likely call the police and be a good witness but I would not interfere with force unless myself or my family were threatened. I'd have no trouble pulling my gun in response to someone shooting indiscriminately at people in a theater for instance, but an attack directed at an individual is where I draw the line personally. I have also decided that if I ever pull my gun in self defense it will be with the sole purpose of using it, not pointing it - also for legal reasons.

    There are way too many variables, and the consequences for an incorrect (illegal) response too great, especially if one does not observe the whole encounter.
    Last edited by t33j; 11-17-2010 at 01:58 PM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    Not exactly - I'd likely call the police and be a good witness but I would not interfere with force unless myself or my family were threatened. I'd have no trouble pulling my gun in response to someone shooting indiscriminately at people in a theater for instance, but an attack directed at an individual is where I draw the line personally. I have also decided that if I ever pull my gun in self defense it will be with the sole purpose of using it, not pointing it - also for legal reasons.

    There are way too many variables, and the consequences for an incorrect (illegal) response too great, especially if one does not observe the whole encounter.
    Very well said!

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    My two cents....

    I don't think this situation even came close to warrant a citizen pulling a gun to defend the officer. This kind of stuff happens all the time (especially in the project areas). I'm sure this officer knew what he was doing, and if he needed to.. he has is own gun to pull. Introducing a yourself and a gun in that situation would only escalate things since now the officer has to deal with a stranger pulling a gun. I think the best thing to do in that situation would be to stand by and help the officer by giving your witness account. Most likely those fools will all lie in an attempt to beat their charges, avoid arrest, and perhaps sue the officer and department (your tax money).

    If a situation is going on where an officer is getting hurt or in real need of assistance, then I would encourage you to ask them if they need help. I have had citizens ask me if I needed help during fights/arrests many times. Several times I asked if they would watch over another person for me, but it never got to the point where I needed their physical assistance, but it was much appreciated. There would only have to be a rare and extreme circumstance for you to pull a gun out in a situation involving police. I can recall a situation where a gunman shot an officer, that officer retrieved the officer's gun and shot the suspect. It happened within the past year or two but obviously that would be one of those situations.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 11-17-2010 at 02:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    On the other side of the coin what if you witness an officer savagely beating someone. What if that person's life is in danger?

    What if the cop is wrong and it costs that citizen their life. It happens more often than you'd think... or maybe not.

    It is dangerous indeed to be in that position.
    Wylde, why must you always bring your anti-LEO comments to every thread? If you believe LEOs are savagely beating innocent citizens to death then please let me know who and where. My coworkers and I would be more angry than you. Trust me, simply pepper spraying someone results in a month long internal investigation. I don't see how any officer could savagely beat someone to death and get away with it. Can you even provide a cite of a time when an officer savagely beat someone to death and it was not warranted?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Wylde, why must you always bring your anti-LEO comments to every thread? If you believe LEOs are savagely beating innocent citizens to death then please let me know who and where. My coworkers and I would be more angry than you. Trust me, simply pepper spraying someone results in a month long internal investigation. I don't see how any officer could savagely beat someone to death and get away with it. Can you even provide a cite of a time when an officer savagely beat someone to death and it was not warranted?
    That's right!
    You NOVA Cops are top notch. How many did the Feds just arrest for extortion and drug distribution in PGC?

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    On the other side of the coin what if you witness an officer savagely beating someone. What if that person's life is in danger?

    What if the cop is wrong and it costs that citizen their life. It happens more often than you'd think... or maybe not.

    It is dangerous indeed to be in that position.
    I do not disagree with you Wydle, but I think the most effective "weapon" against police brutality is a cell phone that the LEO knows is capturing video of the incident.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    IIUYC, you would stand by an allow a person to be bludgeoned to death when they could not defend themselves and were presenting no danger to the person doing the bludgeoning ... even though you had the right and means to intervene...
    And if the person doing the bludgeoning was a cop?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's right!
    You NOVA Cops are top notch. How many did the Feds just arrest for extortion and drug distribution in PGC?
    Sorry Peter that was PGC Maryland not Virginia, and it doesn't surprise me at all. I grew up there and watched that area go down hill for years. Glad to be out of Maryland and lovin it.

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    PG County is NOT NOVA! It is Maryland which is an entirely different world!

    Let's not be bashing LEOs ok ... especially our pro-gun LEO friends.

    Thanks.


    John


    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's right!
    You NOVA Cops are top notch. How many did the Feds just arrest for extortion and drug distribution in PGC?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
    PG County is NOT NOVA! It is Maryland which is an entirely different world!

    Let's not be bashing LEOs ok ... especially our pro-gun LEO friends.

    Thanks.


    John
    Sorry. I have trouble telling NOVA from Maryland.
    Friends?

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Sorry. I have trouble telling NOVA from Maryland.
    Friends?
    OMG. Big difference. Huge difference. Almost an insult. Especially Prince Georges County, MD. That place is a dump. Look what runs their local government and mans its agencies and look what lives there. A real mess.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    And if the person doing the bludgeoning was a cop?
    Excessive and/or deadly force used on a defenseless person isn't predicated or justified by the occupation of the perpetrator. We are taught in legal defense class that when the threat stops being a threat, the use of deadly force is no longer justified. While it might make me hesitate a moment longer to stop a police officer who was engaged in the scenario I presented, I'd like to think that I would react in the same way.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    OMG. Big difference. Huge difference. Almost an insult. Especially Prince Georges County, MD. That place is a dump. Look what runs their local government and mans its agencies and look what lives there. A real mess.
    That's not what I meant. The syndicate feed just said Prince George County. Since I only try to take feeds from Va, I assume Va...but since NOVA and Maryland are close (as in Southside Va. and NC) NOVA news feeds sometimes include Maryland.

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    Considering the officer's use of force options include deadly force, if the officer has not drawn his weapon, I would recommend keeping yours holstered. Stepping in to assist an officer, that can be a personal choice. However, if the officer called out to you assist him, under 18.2-463, that is legally compelling.

    Being a good witness is most of the time the best possible solution. If the officer is chasing a suspect on foot, the cavalry is already coming to him. If the situation appears to be quickly becoming unfavorable for the officer (he now has a 3 on 1 fight on his hands, etc), then determine for yourself how you want to approach it. Sometimes he won't hear someone calling out to him if he is in a fight (auditory exclusion). If he calls out for help, then help. A good citizen is often the closest back up an officer will find.

    But then again...........

    VA CODE 18.2-463:

    If any person on being required by any sheriff or other officer refuse or neglect to assist him: (1) in the execution of his office in a criminal case, (2) in the preservation of the peace, (3) in the apprehending or securing of any person for a breach of the peace, or (4) in any case of escape or rescue, he shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
    Last edited by palerider116; 11-17-2010 at 08:17 PM. Reason: GRAMMAR

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's not what I meant. The syndicate feed just said Prince George County. Since I only try to take feeds from Va, I assume Va...but since NOVA and Maryland are close (as in Southside Va. and NC) NOVA news feeds sometimes include Maryland.
    Just having some fun with ya'. Couldn't let it pass.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Wylde, why must you always bring your anti-LEO comments to every thread? If you believe LEOs are savagely beating innocent citizens to death then please let me know who and where. My coworkers and I would be more angry than you. Trust me, simply pepper spraying someone results in a month long internal investigation. I don't see how any officer could savagely beat someone to death and get away with it. Can you even provide a cite of a time when an officer savagely beat someone to death and it was not warranted?
    Oh, this is rich. LEO229 kettle calling the pot black.

    LEO229 in effect insists on differentiating between unwarranted police beatings and beatings to death, while just earlier generalizes that Wylde brings anti-cop sentiments to every thread. Bwahahahahaha!! I've seen a number of Wylde's posts that had no mention of cops in them. And, there are tons of threads here with no comment from Wylde at all.

    I think it was LEO229 who brought the anti-cop sentiment to this thread by reading excessive anti-copness into Wylde's post and then commenting on it when he could have just let it pass, or made the distinctions himself without attacking or accusing Wylde. LEO229 did more to get the discussed turned anti-cop than anybody else with his own over-reaction.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-17-2010 at 11:03 PM.

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    i suppose i did leave out that the officer DID have his weapon drawn on the person who he was cuffing while the 2 were walking up.

    but when the mother (the 2nd to get arrested) came too close, he reholstered and cuffed her.

    I was doing the witness thing and keeping my distance. I was ok with that until he couldnt get the 2 other people to stop approaching, and he was struggling with the mother as her son was strutting and pacing in the street less than 10 feet away while the cop continually told him to back up. Only then did my mind start thinking about "what if this gets bad on the cop"

    Im not one to jump in on something if it is none of my business. Im not a superhero or a cowboy....but i would like to be mentally prepared for the worst case scenario... im not going to stand by and just spectate while an officer receives a beat down. I never go looking for a fight, or an opportunity to use force... that would be last on my check list as a last resort. (figured i would just clear that up, haha)

    There are good opinions and inputs from everyone on here in this thread. Knowledge is power.

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