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Question on use of force for you to ponder and give me input on

DJEEPER

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
407
Location
Yorktown, ,
Ok, so... I watched some black guy get slammed to the ground by a cop out in front of my place (ran from a traffic stop up the street). When his brother and mother showed up, and refused to stop walking towards the cop, the mother got slammed into a BMW and cuffed. Then the brother took off his gloves, and in a pathetic attempt to look badass, ...strutted around in the street spewing out curses and threats, another cop car rolled up. He got slammed onto the hood and cuffed as well X-D.

well, anyways, there was a moment when i was very tense because the 2 people were coming up on the cop and in his personal space, as he was ordering them to back up, as well as cuffing the first perp.

Would i be in the right to run in and draw on someone if the two people jumped the cop?

In other words, 2 on 1....

What does it take to be in fear for another person's life?
 

kenny

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
635
Location
Richmond Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
So what does a person's skin color have to do with this incident?

Most likely help was on the way. I would have offered my assistance to the officer until his back-up arrived. My weapon would have stayed holstered unless I feared someone life was in danger. Three people acting stupid does not do it for me to draw.

It was once said, "for every action there should be a equal and opposite reaction".

Also from the officers perspective has does he know you are not some crazy guy just like the three he is dealing with. I suggest you always ask the officer before offering any assistance. Perhaps if you were to witness this in the future you first action should be to call 9-1-1 to make sure the officer has help on the way.
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
Are you serious?

Would i be in the right to run in and draw on someone if the two people jumped the cop?

"Run in and draw on someone?"

Did the police officer have HIS weapon -- gun, taser, baton -- drawn? Did it seem like he NEEDED help? Simply and loudly saying, "Officer do you need help?" would most likely make the "perps" reconsider and, as others have mentioned, if the officer thought he was in jeopardy he would have already called for backup and the area was about to be flooded by brother officers...

You standing there with a drawn gun would have made you their immediate target....

And, as the prior poster asked, what did the color of the people matter? I hate it when people think they have to inject race into a story, when the incident had nothing whatsoever to do with the race of the participants. Unfortunately, this happens all too often. For some reason people feel it necessary to describe people in racial or ethnic terms when telling a story, as if it made a difference.
 
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ocholsteroc

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
1,317
Location
Virginia, Hampton Roads, NC 9 miles away
Ok, so... I watched some black guy get slammed to the ground by a cop out in front of my place (ran from a traffic stop up the street). When his brother and mother showed up, and refused to stop walking towards the cop, the mother got slammed into a BMW and cuffed. Then the brother took off his gloves, and in a pathetic attempt to look badass, ...strutted around in the street spewing out curses and threats, another cop car rolled up. He got slammed onto the hood and cuffed as well X-D.

well, anyways, there was a moment when i was very tense because the 2 people were coming up on the cop and in his personal space, as he was ordering them to back up, as well as cuffing the first perp.

Would i be in the right to run in and draw on someone if the two people jumped the cop?

In other words, 2 on 1....

What does it take to be in fear for another person's life?

Do you mean like if the cop was overpowerd and needed help? I have seen COPS TV SHOW where the camera men jump in(2 of them) to help the cop, and other times aswell. I think its called citizen assist? I do not know.. I think you mean, if the cop is on the ground being beating to death by some evil thug punk, then yes I think you should help, or its required?
 
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user

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,516
Location
Northern Piedmont
Fear for one's life is irrelevant. You've really got to know what you're doing when you interfere with an altercation - when the two relatives were being arrested for obstruction of justice, you were contemplating not only obstruction of justice but assault with a deadly weapon.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
On the other side of the coin what if you witness an officer savagely beating someone. What if that person's life is in danger?

What if the cop is wrong and it costs that citizen their life. It happens more often than you'd think... or maybe not.

It is dangerous indeed to be in that position.
 

t33j

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,384
Location
King George, VA
I decided a while ago to defend nobody against death or great bodily harm but myself (especially if they seem not to want to be bothered by that responsibility) and avoid this sort of problem entirely.
 
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JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
I decided a while ago to defend nobody against death or great bodily harm but myself (especially if they seem not to want to be bothered by that responsibility) and avoid this sort of problem entirely.

IIUYC, you would stand by an allow a person to be bludgeoned to death when they could not defend themselves and were presenting no danger to the person doing the bludgeoning ... even though you had the right and means to intervene.... Yes?
 

t33j

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,384
Location
King George, VA
IIUYC, you would stand by an allow a person to be bludgeoned to death when they could not defend themselves and were presenting no danger to the person doing the bludgeoning ... even though you had the right and means to intervene.... Yes?

Not exactly - I'd likely call the police and be a good witness but I would not interfere with force unless myself or my family were threatened. I'd have no trouble pulling my gun in response to someone shooting indiscriminately at people in a theater for instance, but an attack directed at an individual is where I draw the line personally. I have also decided that if I ever pull my gun in self defense it will be with the sole purpose of using it, not pointing it - also for legal reasons.

There are way too many variables, and the consequences for an incorrect (illegal) response too great, especially if one does not observe the whole encounter.
 
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peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Not exactly - I'd likely call the police and be a good witness but I would not interfere with force unless myself or my family were threatened. I'd have no trouble pulling my gun in response to someone shooting indiscriminately at people in a theater for instance, but an attack directed at an individual is where I draw the line personally. I have also decided that if I ever pull my gun in self defense it will be with the sole purpose of using it, not pointing it - also for legal reasons.

There are way too many variables, and the consequences for an incorrect (illegal) response too great, especially if one does not observe the whole encounter.

Very well said!
 

NovaCop

New member
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
471
Location
, ,
My two cents....

I don't think this situation even came close to warrant a citizen pulling a gun to defend the officer. This kind of stuff happens all the time (especially in the project areas). I'm sure this officer knew what he was doing, and if he needed to.. he has is own gun to pull. Introducing a yourself and a gun in that situation would only escalate things since now the officer has to deal with a stranger pulling a gun. I think the best thing to do in that situation would be to stand by and help the officer by giving your witness account. Most likely those fools will all lie in an attempt to beat their charges, avoid arrest, and perhaps sue the officer and department (your tax money).

If a situation is going on where an officer is getting hurt or in real need of assistance, then I would encourage you to ask them if they need help. I have had citizens ask me if I needed help during fights/arrests many times. Several times I asked if they would watch over another person for me, but it never got to the point where I needed their physical assistance, but it was much appreciated. There would only have to be a rare and extreme circumstance for you to pull a gun out in a situation involving police. I can recall a situation where a gunman shot an officer, that officer retrieved the officer's gun and shot the suspect. It happened within the past year or two but obviously that would be one of those situations.
 
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NovaCop

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Dec 6, 2009
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, ,
On the other side of the coin what if you witness an officer savagely beating someone. What if that person's life is in danger?

What if the cop is wrong and it costs that citizen their life. It happens more often than you'd think... or maybe not.

It is dangerous indeed to be in that position.

Wylde, why must you always bring your anti-LEO comments to every thread? If you believe LEOs are savagely beating innocent citizens to death then please let me know who and where. My coworkers and I would be more angry than you. Trust me, simply pepper spraying someone results in a month long internal investigation. I don't see how any officer could savagely beat someone to death and get away with it. Can you even provide a cite of a time when an officer savagely beat someone to death and it was not warranted?
 

peter nap

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Wylde, why must you always bring your anti-LEO comments to every thread? If you believe LEOs are savagely beating innocent citizens to death then please let me know who and where. My coworkers and I would be more angry than you. Trust me, simply pepper spraying someone results in a month long internal investigation. I don't see how any officer could savagely beat someone to death and get away with it. Can you even provide a cite of a time when an officer savagely beat someone to death and it was not warranted?

That's right!
You NOVA Cops are top notch. How many did the Feds just arrest for extortion and drug distribution in PGC?:lol:
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
On the other side of the coin what if you witness an officer savagely beating someone. What if that person's life is in danger?

What if the cop is wrong and it costs that citizen their life. It happens more often than you'd think... or maybe not.

It is dangerous indeed to be in that position.

I do not disagree with you Wydle, but I think the most effective "weapon" against police brutality is a cell phone that the LEO knows is capturing video of the incident.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
IIUYC, you would stand by an allow a person to be bludgeoned to death when they could not defend themselves and were presenting no danger to the person doing the bludgeoning ... even though you had the right and means to intervene...
And if the person doing the bludgeoning was a cop?
 

Wolf_shadow

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
1,215
Location
Accomac, Virginia, USA
That's right!
You NOVA Cops are top notch. How many did the Feds just arrest for extortion and drug distribution in PGC?:lol:

Sorry Peter that was PGC Maryland not Virginia, and it doesn't surprise me at all. I grew up there and watched that area go down hill for years. Glad to be out of Maryland and lovin it.
:banana:
 

John Pierce

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
1,777
PG County is NOT NOVA! It is Maryland which is an entirely different world!

Let's not be bashing LEOs ok ... especially our pro-gun LEO friends.

Thanks.


John


That's right!
You NOVA Cops are top notch. How many did the Feds just arrest for extortion and drug distribution in PGC?:lol:
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
And if the person doing the bludgeoning was a cop?

Excessive and/or deadly force used on a defenseless person isn't predicated or justified by the occupation of the perpetrator. We are taught in legal defense class that when the threat stops being a threat, the use of deadly force is no longer justified. While it might make me hesitate a moment longer to stop a police officer who was engaged in the scenario I presented, I'd like to think that I would react in the same way.
 
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