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Thread: SCOTUS okays enhanced sentences for armed criminals

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    SCOTUS okays enhanced sentences for armed criminals

    The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled 8-0 with Elena Kagan recused (she worked on the case as Solicitor General) that enhancing prison sentences for the use of a firearm in a crime is legal.

    The significance of this ruling should not be lost on veteran Seattle talk show host John Carlson, or on Alan Gottlieb, founder and executive vice president of the Bellevue-based Second Amendment Foundation, nor on former SAF staffer Dave LaCourse. They were the power behind Washington’s landmark “Three Strikes and You’re Out” and “Hard Time for Armed Crime” measures 17 and 15 years ago, respectively.


    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...-and-gun-lobby



    Or try this:



    http://tinyurl.com/28pbcpa

  2. #2
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Maybe the medication that the Liberal members of the Court have been taking to control their affliction is finally taking hold. An 8-0 decision on something as "Conservative" as this case is "shocking". Please, shock me some more with more positive rulings like this one.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  3. #3
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Is it just me (wishful thinking) or have the last few gun cases been pro gun, with the exception of Vancouver(which I feel will be overturned on appeal).

    From another examiner article:
    http://www.examiner.com/la-in-los-an...r-thanksgiving

    December 6th, we should have a ruling in the case of Ed Peruta v County of San Diego et al. If Ed is successful then California will become a "Shall Issue" state which means that police authorities will no longer be able to decide who can and who cannot obtain a license to carry a loaded firearm in public. For most of us, this means a license for Concealed Carry for a couple of million lucky people it means a non-discretionary license to openly carry a loaded handgun as well.

    Also in California the Nordyke case (9th Circuit) is being revisited.
    We are waiting for a ruling from the 3-judge panel. There is no set
    "date" for the opinion to be released It's anybody's guess how long
    this may take; perhaps 3-6 months.
    The case was filed in 1999. It has been heard by the Ninth Circuit
    three times,
    including en banc after a sua sponte call for a vote,
    and had even passed through
    the California Supreme Court on a certified
    question. Following the panel’s next
    decision, it could well return
    before the en banc court, and perhaps reach the Supreme Court
    .

    Alan Gottlieb had this to say on the case:
    “This is a very important case, because it could establish the
    highest standard of scrutiny to which gun laws around the country would
    be subjected. While gun prohibitionists were upset by the 2008 Heller
    ruling and demoralized by our victory this year in the McDonald case,
    they are terrified of a strict scrutiny standard that could be
    established by the Nordyke case.”

  4. #4
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    M1Gunr-

    I don't think you're dreaming. Sometimes it takes a while for the "Pendulum" to swing back. Just like "Prohibition" and the fiasco it turned out to be, Gun Control is loosing favor as a "lost cause". As WE recognized a long time ago, gun prohibitions do not take guns from the Criminal's hands, just leave the honest citizens unable to defend themselves.

    We may not get ALL the rulings we want but we are definitely seeing a change.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    While I am certainly a law and order type, I have mixed feelings about this. Over the past few years, I have seen the "firearms enhancement" used as a club to attempt to get law abiding citizens to plead to crimes when they had a ligitimate right to use the firearm for self-defense. It raises the ante for armed self-defense, when the details of the case are not clear.

  6. #6
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Hayes View Post
    While I am certainly a law and order type, I have mixed feelings about this. Over the past few years, I have seen the "firearms enhancement" used as a club to attempt to get law abiding citizens to plead to crimes when they had a ligitimate right to use the firearm for self-defense. It raises the ante for armed self-defense, when the details of the case are not clear.
    Me too, does this mean that if you are driving without realizing your license is suspended and get an infraction they can now enhance it? When will it stop, we have the right to be armed unless the gun is the actual use of the crime i.e. armed robbery, this just another tool for the power to.....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Me too, does this mean that if you are driving without realizing your license is suspended and get an infraction they can now enhance it? When will it stop, we have the right to be armed unless the gun is the actual use of the crime i.e. armed robbery, this just another tool for the power to.....
    I was trying to figure how this is a gun owners victory. Does the mere fact that a person has a gun on them when the commit a crime mean that the crime is worse. This is similar to the hate crime legislation that people are being charged for something that has nothing to do with the crime. Can someone explain it to me in other terms that I seem to have missed? Does it really matter if you kill someone with a gun or a knife?

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Me too, does this mean that if you are driving without realizing your license is suspended and get an infraction they can now enhance it? When will it stop, we have the right to be armed unless the gun is the actual use of the crime i.e. armed robbery, this just another tool for the power to.....
    Most driving violations are merely "Infractions" and not subject to Criminal sanctions. The "Firearm Enhancement" type laws are applied for Criminal Violations.

    Probably won't get a mandatory 5 years for an expired license as the offense carried no jail time to begin with.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Most driving violations are merely "Infractions" and not subject to Criminal sanctions. The "Firearm Enhancement" type laws are applied for Criminal Violations.

    Probably won't get a mandatory 5 years for an expired license as the offense carried no jail time to begin with.
    And why I specifically said Suspended license (revoked too) that is a criminal offense.
    And can carry for a first offense up to a year in jail, and a $5,000 fine.
    They are mostly plead down to traffic infractions but you get some zealous prosecutor who don't like you and then what?
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 11-26-2010 at 11:54 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    And why I specifically said Suspended license (revoked too) that is a criminal offense.
    And can carry for a first offense up to a year in jail, and a $5,000 fine.
    They are mostly plead down to traffic infractions but you get some zealous prosecutor who don't like you and then what?
    Just don't drive on a suspended license. Better yet, don't get it suspended to begin with.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  11. #11
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Just don't drive on a suspended license. Better yet, don't get it suspended to begin with.
    Nice sidestep.

    You are not always aware of when you are suspended, trust me suspended twice in one year without knowledge of suspension.

    So you would agree that person exercising in his right to travel freely upon our roads should get 5 years enhanced because he happen to be exercising his right to bear arms at the same time?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  12. #12
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    You are not always aware of when you are suspended, trust me suspended twice in one year without knowledge of suspension.
    Most people are aware of a pending suspension before happens just by the "infractions" they commit and whether or not they have complied with Court rulings, fines, etc. Don't appear for Court= Suspension. Don't pay fine=Suspension. Too many Tickets=Suspension DUI=Suspension. Etc. Etc, Etc,

    Hard to believe that a Suspension was a TOTAL surprise. But then again, some people have all the luck.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  13. #13
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Most people are aware of a pending suspension before happens just by the "infractions" they commit and whether or not they have complied with Court rulings, fines, etc. Don't appear for Court= Suspension. Don't pay fine=Suspension. Too many Tickets=Suspension DUI=Suspension. Etc. Etc, Etc,

    Hard to believe that a Suspension was a TOTAL surprise. But then again, some people have all the luck.
    Actually my public defender on the first incident said it happens quite a bit.
    Like when your address on your license is not your mailing address. We don't get mail here where I live. And you left out clerical error, like when your local authorities decide to put all payment on one fine letting the other go over the limits......hmmm...on purpose maybe.

    Still doesn't change the fact that it is criminal and would be a ridiculous reason to get enhanced.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  14. #14
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    Washington's firearm enhancement is codified to only be applied in Felony sentencing. The length of the additional jail time is also dependent on the class of felony convicted of.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  15. #15
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Washington's firearm enhancement is codified to only be applied in Felony sentencing. The length of the additional jail time is also dependent on the class of felony convicted of.
    But where will it stop? I think there are crimes that are considered felony but the firearm had nothing to do with the crime so should not be an issue in the sentencing. Yet that often becomes one of the main focus points of conviction or trial. OMG!!!!! they got into a fight and had a gun in the diaper bag in the car.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Hayes View Post
    While I am certainly a law and order type, I have mixed feelings about this. Over the past few years, I have seen the "firearms enhancement" used as a club to attempt to get law abiding citizens to plead to crimes when they had a legitimate right to use the firearm for self-defense. It raises the ante for armed self-defense, when the details of the case are not clear.
    My feelings on this are---- Don't criminalize the possession of a firearm. But, crimes committed with the firearm ACTIVELY USED, not just present, should be prosecuted with a dangerous weapon enhancement....

    And with regard to your statement about the State's use of the firearms enhancement as a club against those exercising self defense or defense of others.... The State should have to prove that the accused did not perform the actions as self-defense or defense of others, instead of the victim having to prove that they did! You know, that old standard----"INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY"!

    A recent case in Arizona demonstrated the need for the above standard!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 11-27-2010 at 06:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Most people are aware of a pending suspension before happens just by the "infractions" they commit and whether or not they have complied with Court rulings, fines, etc. Don't appear for Court= Suspension. Don't pay fine=Suspension. Too many Tickets=Suspension DUI=Suspension. Etc. Etc, Etc,

    Hard to believe that a Suspension was a TOTAL surprise. But then again, some people have all the luck.
    Actually, in Utah since I truthfully reported my medical status as one with Diabetes I now get an annual letter/form that must be completed by a health-care professional and returned by mail or fax. Failure to return will result in an automatic suspension/revocation of my driving privilege WITHOUT further notice from the State.

    The first clue that I would have that the State didn't get or process my form would be when the officer tells me that my license has been suspended or revoked AFTER I HAVE BEEN PULLED OVER!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 11-27-2010 at 06:43 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Actually, in Utah since I truthfully reported my medical status as one with Diabetes I now get an annual letter/form that must be completed by a health-care professional and returned by mail or fax. Failure to return will result in an automatic suspension/revocation of my driving privilege WITHOUT further notice from the State.

    The first clue that I would have that the State didn't get or process my form would be when the officer tells me that my license has been suspended or revoked AFTER I HAVE BEEN PULLED OVER!
    I understand what your saying but my original point was people know of circumstances in advance that can get their license suspended or revoked. Even in your case, you know of the conditions the State placed on your license. If I were in similar circumstances I would MAKE SURE that the document was received by the State DOL. If it was here in Washington I would take it directly to the DOL office. At the least I would send it Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested. If I didn't receive the "Green Card" back within a few days of mailing, I'd call and check.

    Again, people know of the circumstances before. Most suspensions/revocations are due to FTA, Failure to Pay Fine or Restitution, or additional violations of terms and conditions imposed by a Court.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Hayes View Post
    While I am certainly a law and order type, I have mixed feelings about this. Over the past few years, I have seen the "firearms enhancement" used as a club to attempt to get law abiding citizens to plead to crimes when they had a ligitimate right to use the firearm for self-defense. It raises the ante for armed self-defense, when the details of the case are not clear.
    Same goes for the seizure laws.

    Lets say some guy makes a bad choice and decides to solicit a prostitute...

    Well, that same guy who made a bad choice, also has a CCW, so now he's committing the crime while armed, which jumps it up to a felony. His car was used to drive him to the area that he solicited the prostitute.... Used in the commission of a felony, so now his car is seized.

    So, a guy who wanted some poontang real bad, is now a convicted felon, serving a mandatory minimum 5 years in jail, and the government 'stole' his car...



  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Same goes for the seizure laws.

    Lets say some guy makes a bad choice and decides to solicit a prostitute...

    Well, that same guy who made a bad choice, also has a CCW, so now he's committing the crime while armed, which jumps it up to a felony. His car was used to drive him to the area that he solicited the prostitute.... Used in the commission of a felony, so now his car is seized.

    So, a guy who wanted some poontang real bad, is now a convicted felon, serving a mandatory minimum 5 years in jail, and the government 'stole' his car...


    Exactly some poor smuck who couldn't get laid and was desperate enough to pay for it is now a criminal and a felony and gets enhanced to boot.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I understand what your saying but my original point was people know of circumstances in advance that can get their license suspended or revoked. Even in your case, you know of the conditions the State placed on your license. If I were in similar circumstances I would MAKE SURE that the document was received by the State DOL. If it was here in Washington I would take it directly to the DOL office. At the least I would send it Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested. If I didn't receive the "Green Card" back within a few days of mailing, I'd call and check.

    Again, people know of the circumstances before. Most suspensions/revocations are due to FTA, Failure to Pay Fine or Restitution, or additional violations of terms and conditions imposed by a Court.
    Both of us have pointed out where we made the efforts we are supposed to but the state made the mistake. It is very possible not to receive notice and the my defending attorney in the last case and the prosecutor in this one both said it happens all the time, the state doesn't care. When in fact it should be the state that should have the burden of proof not the citizen.

    But this is an off topic distraction the main point was that guns that are not part of the crime should not be part of any enhancement regardless of the circumstances. techno points out a good example, I thought I did with a fight that breaks out too, etc. Trust me the police and prosecutors will make the gun an issue any chance they can to paint people in a worse light to the judge and jury.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Can anyone here cite where the commission of a misdemeanor, while carrying a firearm, gets the crime "bumped up" to felony status? Unless the gun was USED in the commission of the crime the presence is merely an "enhancement to the sentence".

    Solicit a hooker while armed and getting the crime bumped up to felony? Cite the law or portion thereof that states this.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Can anyone here cite where the commission of a misdemeanor, while carrying a firearm, gets the crime "bumped up" to felony status? Unless the gun was USED in the commission of the crime the presence is merely an "enhancement to the sentence".

    Solicit a hooker while armed and getting the crime bumped up to felony? Cite the law or portion thereof that states this.
    Why should it be an enhancement is the point. If it isn't used in the action of the crime it shouldn't be an enhancement.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Why should it be an enhancement is the point. If it isn't used in the action of the crime it shouldn't be an enhancement.
    It won't be an enhancement for a misdemeanor. As for enhancements for felony's, I'm in favor of any enhancement they want to hang on those that commit felonies. Would sure beat the current system where sentences are way too short for the crime committed.

    In Washington State the Firearm Enhancement is only provided for a Felony conviction, not all the numerous misdemeanors or infractions. Here's the "law":

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.94A.533
    Last edited by amlevin; 11-28-2010 at 11:20 AM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    It won't be an enhancement for a misdemeanor. As for enhancements for felony's, I'm in favor of any enhancement they want to hang on those that commit felonies. Would sure beat the current system where sentences are way too short for the crime committed.

    In Washington State the Firearm Enhancement is only provided for a Felony conviction, not all the numerous misdemeanors or infractions. Here's the "law":

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.94A.533
    Thats were I would disagree I don't care if it's felony or not if the gun wasn't used it shouldn't be an enhancement, it's a slippery slope that can lead to more enhancements to be spread to other things such as misdemeanors, etc.

    By the way online gambling is a felony in this state many don't know this, so if you are carrying your firearm should that get an enhancement?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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