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Thread: Riding The Bus In Seattle

  1. #1
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Riding The Bus In Seattle

    OMG, this really sets me off. Before someone asks the question, what does this have to do with OC'ing, self-defense does. old man on the bus, minding his own business, guy that is out of control pacing back and forth on the bus, then attacks the man off the bus. Of course, the driver wasn't aware of anything going on on his bus, like the crazed maniac in the back pacing back and forth yelling

    It's unfortunate this citizen, who was elderly and did not speak much English was not equipped to defend himself.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...eating18m.html

    "Metro spokeswoman Linda Thielke said crime is actually down for the first nine months of this year compared with the same period a year ago: Assaults on passengers dropped from 83 to 50 countywide, and assaults on drivers declined from 109 to 66, she said. Transit police patrols have increased, and officers have been suspending four to five people a day from Metro use for unruly conduct, Thielke said."

    "Transit police arrested Curry a week later in Kent. He has been arrested at least 50 times, including twice this year for sleeping aboard buses."

    http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-1116...,1548820.story
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 11-18-2010 at 01:53 AM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  2. #2
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Watching this video of the attack, concerns me deeply and to think no one one the bus but the little old lady trying to block his path out the door.
    To many today still will not get involved and wonder why when they are attacked no one steps up for them, it is a shame.

    I wonder if the bus driver called for assistance at the beginning of the unruly behavior and threats?

    Question comes up what would any of us have done if we found ourselves witnessing this incident?
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    The driver didn't contact police until after the man was attacked physically, FWIU.

    People think that because they are surrounded by others, automatically they will be safe...that's just not the case. Hell, the poor man is laying on the ground, not moving, and people are walking around him...he could have died right there, alone.

    I try not to read articles like this because they infuriate me.

    I suppose this raises the question...is it worth putting YOUR FREEDOM on the line, say, for an elderly, handicap gentleman like this? Really, if you do respond with force to stop the POS, whether it be from attacking you, your family or an elderly handicap man, you are in legal jeopardy of being put behind bars, possibly for years.

    The second you use your sidearm in self-defense you run the risk of an enhanced charge for using a firearm, mandatory 5 years, then if the person dies, murder, if they live, assault with a deadly weapon, or even attempted murder. If the person lives and you are found guilty, you are looking at more time for using the sidearm than for the actual assault itself. Remember, it doesn't matter what the law says, what matters is what the jury concludes.

    "judged by twelve...rather than carried by six"?
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    There in lies the tough question B.Lady. What to do. Would one have been justified pulling his/her sidearm when he got in the face of the man the first time? I have never been in a bad situation like that, so I do not know. I do know that the terrorist needs to be hung in the streets as an example! We are at war with terrorists. This thug is a terrorist plain and simple.

    I guess one could have gotten off the bus to insure the safety of the gentleman, have your hand on your sidearm and be ready to react? Again, how far do you go to protect the public. I will have to research that and find any protection for the citizen that does go that direction.

    If it was me by myself or with my family after the first threat I would have ended it. My family at that point is the biggest responsibility. The moment you feel your life was in danger deadly force is allowed! The security tape shows that if the man did happen to have a pistol he would have been totally justified to put as many rounds center mass as his pistol allowed.

    Also note that the terrorist did not pick on any of the able bodied people. He had to target someone that would offer no resistance...maybe that is the justification one needs...to defend someone who cannot defend themselves? I do think that this pos needs to be put down for his crime. He is a terrorist.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    This one's got me really ticked off too. More than anyone else, that driver dropped the ball big time. He had more than enough reason to either speak up, call for assistance, or trip the silent alarm. Especially if this behavior was going on for HALF A FREAKIN HOUR! The idea that this driver didn't know what was going on either is pure ********. Even in a 60 foot coach he should be aware of something of this level going on. FOR HALF A FREAKIN HOUR! I realize Metro drivers have to put up with way more than their fair share of this kinda garbage, but come on! That oxygen thief crossed the line from "obnoxious" to "dangerous" long before that poor guy was on the ground.

    And doncha just love how everyone jumps to his aid right afterwards? The driver doesn't even get off his ass to see if the guy's still alive, just keeps boarding the other fools standing there. FAIL FAIL FAIL!

    I think an armed passenger would have had more than enough justification to take some kind of action, if the driver still failed to act after being specifically notified by said armed passenger. Anyone with the proper situational awareness for carrying a sidearm should have been able to realize early on that the victim was disabled, and that the aggressor represented an immediate threat to his life. Waiting for the bus to stop & getting up & telling this punk that he needs to leave, NOW, with hand on gun or even low-ready would be completely reasonable, you can be darn sure a COP would have had his gun out by then. Picking on an elderly disabled immigrant, this waste of space is obviously a total coward, probably would have gone running, after a few choice words, once he looked down the barrel. And if not, well, then the taxpayers wouldn't have the burden of keeping his ass alive for the next several years.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  6. #6
    Regular Member skiingislife725's Avatar
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    Phew that gets the blood boiling doesn't it. Sounds like a sick animal needs to be put down. Or at least caged for a LONG while so he can think about where his "gangsta zone" got him.

    Hard to say what I would have done not being there. But supposedly harassing the entire bus and then honing in on one mentally disabled guy who can't really defend himself? I'm almost positive the guy at least would have got maced. That sounds like a good reason for using OC spray.

    Off the bus, since it ended at the sucker punch, I probably wouldn't have drawn. But if he went for another while the guy was on the ground, I would most definitely be in fear for that guy's life.

    Gotta go to my punching bag now...
    Last edited by skiingislife725; 11-18-2010 at 10:09 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Depredation Permits are issued in many states to allow hunters to shoot animals that are causing damage.

    Maybe it's time that the same kind of permit be issued to allow hunting of "animals" like this. Arrested over 50 times. It's obvious that the legal system is not protecting the public from this person. Sadly, there are far too many just like him on the streets.

    When the justice system gives up, just declare people like this "Fair Game". Let them know what it feels like to be "hunted".


    OK, I know, we are a civilized society and aren't supposed to think like this. Too bad that these "mutants" don't believe the same and merely continue to prey on the weaker. And to think this could be cured for less than $0.25 (cheaper if you reload).
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  8. #8
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    That one punch could have killed the man. Nowhere in the RCW does it say the perp has to make contact with the victim, they just have to have the ability to cause grave bodily harm or death. The perp did have that ability. As defined by the RCW, drawing your sidearm is justifiable, and pulling the trigger, well, what would a reasonable person conclude the threat level to be.

    Fortunately or unfortunately, you draw on this guy, Darwin would have capitalized on it.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 11-18-2010 at 11:40 AM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    What REALLY pisses me off is the not ONE of the persons waiting to get on the bus offered any assistance at all. Just stood around like good little sheeple, then they all decide not their problem.

    People truly do suck.

  10. #10
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    I think that drawing on this guy would have been fine. The victim was a disabled elderly man. He couldn't defend himself against hat guy. Hell, I'm in great shape, am going on 22 and I doubt I'd be able to defend myself from that a**hole unarmed. Also, the 1 punch caused the victim to need jaw surgery to fix the damage and the man still cannot walk correctly. I think that meets all of the criteria for justifiably drawing your weapon, if not shooting the animal.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

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  11. #11
    Regular Member cbpeck's Avatar
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    My first thought is that I may have offered to sit next to the victim on the bus...

    "Excuse me sir, may I sit here?" If the man allows me to sit down then the animal has to decide if he's going to mess with me to get to the old man.

    I probably wouldn't have escorted the old man off the bus, though. Maybe I would've kept an eye on him until he got off, but I can't say I'd get off of a bus if I was trying to get somewhere myself.

    After the coward punched the man and ran there's really not much you can do anyway. You can't shoot a fleeing criminal - unfortunately.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbpeck View Post
    My first thought is that I may have offered to sit next to the victim on the bus...

    "Excuse me sir, may I sit here?" If the man allows me to sit down then the animal has to decide if he's going to mess with me to get to the old man.

    I probably wouldn't have escorted the old man off the bus, though. Maybe I would've kept an eye on him until he got off, but I can't say I'd get off of a bus if I was trying to get somewhere myself.

    After the coward punched the man and ran there's really not much you can do anyway. You can't shoot a fleeing criminal - unfortunately.
    Might be a good way to de-escalate, but tactically that puts you in a bad position. Assuming you carry right side, it'd be hard to draw on the punk if he's right there looming over you.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Might be a good way to de-escalate, but tactically that puts you in a bad position. Assuming you carry right side, it'd be hard to draw on the punk if he's right there looming over you.
    I would say sit across the isle from the victim. When I have taken the bus, I sit at the front though...get to see who is coming in and have a side-seated position where I can scan the whole bus.

    I think going over to sit by the the victim would have caught the attention of the pos...then again, maybe his attention would have been redirected to someone who will put him down if he gets to out of hand.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  14. #14
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I would say sit across the isle from the victim. When I have taken the bus, I sit at the front though...get to see who is coming in and have a side-seated position where I can scan the whole bus.

    I think going over to sit by the the victim would have caught the attention of the pos...then again, maybe his attention would have been redirected to someone who will put him down if he gets to out of hand.
    Sitting across from the vic then puts him in the line of fire If one were to confront this animal, I think it'd be best to do so while standing in the aisle, or on the turntable (according section, more room to draw there), while the back door is open, thereby encouraging him to flee rather than fight.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    I think that drawing on this guy would have been fine. The victim was a disabled elderly man. He couldn't defend himself against hat guy. Hell, I'm in great shape, am going on 22 and I doubt I'd be able to defend myself from that a**hole unarmed. Also, the 1 punch caused the victim to need jaw surgery to fix the damage and the man still cannot walk correctly. I think that meets all of the criteria for justifiably drawing your weapon, if not shooting the animal.

    That is one things that arises when you step into anything before it plays out, all you have to back up your response is a reasonable conclusion where it was going to lead, not where it went. I am sure no reasonable person would argue that the perp could not and was not on his way to assaulting the elderly handicap man. Watching that video freaks me out...when someone is out of control like that, it is freaking scary to be in the vicinity of a nut-job like that.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  16. #16
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Sitting across from the vic then puts him in the line of fire If one were to confront this animal, I think it'd be best to do so while standing in the aisle, or on the turntable (according section, more room to draw there), while the back door is open, thereby encouraging him to flee rather than fight.
    Hopefully he would run. Considering who he attacked, now that I think about it, he would run.

    I was going to say, in a sitting position, the perp is 6'4", the angle would be high above the victim if you were taking a chest shot...but then again, bullets do weird things in entering and possibly exiting the body from random angles.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 11-18-2010 at 01:49 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  17. #17
    Regular Member Chris.R.Anderson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbpeck View Post
    After the coward punched the man and ran there's really not much you can do anyway. You can't shoot a fleeing criminal - unfortunately.
    Some states don't have that problem, you are allowed LETHAL force just to detain a felon like this guy. Maybe we ought to look into copying those style of laws for Washington.

    Really restores your faith in humanity when not one of the people standing right next to the poor man after he was hit even check to see if he will live, or call the cops or anything. They just got on the bus and pretended nothing happened. I say their attitude makes them share in the guilt.

    As for what I would do? I would like to think I would have intervened to some level while still on the bus, though from what happened there was no point where drawing a weapon would have been OK. Because of the laws of our state, I am sad to say that once it was done and over, there would have been nothing I could have done but stay with the victim. The "best" case scenario for getting rid of this guy would be if I intervened to tell him to leave the poor man alone, and forbade him to approach the guy anymore, and then he attacks me physically for interfering. At that point I fill him with lead, and am totally justified, even by our archaic, restrictive, crappy laws.
    “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.” -- Ronald Reagan

  18. #18
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris.R.Anderson View Post
    The "best" case scenario for getting rid of this guy would be if I intervened to tell him to leave the poor man alone, and forbade him to approach the guy anymore, and then he attacks me physically for interfering. At that point I fill him with lead, and am totally justified, even by our archaic, restrictive, crappy laws.
    You would definitely redirect the perps attention. I though you could use force to stop someone engaged in a felonious act, then again, after he committed an aggravated assault (felony level), the felonious act was over.

    It's unfortunate that due to the size of the perp v. the older handicap man and all other variables that the perp would not be charged with using lethal force.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 11-18-2010 at 01:56 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  19. #19
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Hopefully he would run. Considering who he attacked, now that I think about it, he would run.

    I was going to say, in a sitting position, the perp is 6'4", the angle would be high above the victim if you were taking a chest shot...but then again, bullets do weird things in entering and possibly exiting the body from random angles.
    I was thinking along the same lines. Sit across, get his attention, he turns around to find a gun pointing at him, but low enough that no one else would see it... probably make him turn tail & run right there. BUT, on the offhand chance that his stupid gene is more dominant than his coward gene, and you had to pull the trigger...
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    BUT, on the offhand chance that his stupid gene is more dominant than his coward gene, and you had to pull the trigger...
    If his walking up to the recorder and making statements isn't an indicator that he leans toward the former. My first thought seeing the video and his erratic behavior, I would guess he was high on something...or clinically insane.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  21. #21
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    And in all this Monday-morning QBing woulda-shoulda-coulda, let's not forget that the biggest "shoulda" is the driver should have acted. Since there was obviously not an armed citizen on the bus, the driver was in the best position, and had the best tools, to de-escalate or transfer the attention of the thug. This wasn't just some "Best to stay out of it" fight between two punks, this was a predator verbally assaulting an elderly disabled man for half an hour before physically assaulting him. I dunno about Metro busses, but all CT busses have a great big fire extinguisher right next to the front door. I've considered using it as a weapon more than once (but not much more thankfully). Even if the driver didn't have the cohones to stand up & do something, there's a silent alarm for a reason. He could have had cops on that bus within a few minutes.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  22. #22
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    This whole news story really pissed me off, too.
    I'd have to look around for the quote, but it goes something like
    "the end of a society is near when it fails to provide for the vulnerable" and the qualifier is that the vulnerable are those who cannot defend themselves, i.e. the elderly, disabled, children, unborn, etc. Not those who don't feel like it, or can't stomache it, but those who just plain CAN'T
    Makes me want to go ride the #7 with a trenchcoat & big floppy hat. Don't make a lot of noise, don't attract attention (tho a white man alone on that bus at night is attention all by itself) and don't let the defenseless go unheard.
    I won't get into the what would I do...

  23. #23
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    The second the trigger is pulled, you are the perp and he is the victim, when the police show up, until you prove otherwise through a statement, witness statements, if any witnesses are present, are compared to yours. My partner and I were laying in bed last night talking about this incident. She felt that she would rather be in legal jeopardy than watch a perp commit an assault and possible murder against a disabled person...I couldn't agree more. It just turns my stomach watching people walk around the victim as he lay on the ground, just going about their business. I want to believe in humanity and that people around me would help, but there have been too many instances where people have been beaten and murdered while around crowds of people. I remember years ago when I first moved to Seattle, walking down by Pike Place Market. There were two gentlemen, one was older, the other younger, and the younger guy was kicking the hell out of the older guy..hundreds of people around...how it caught my attention, the car in front of me was stopped and the driver had his video recorder out, he was filming the beating.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  24. #24
    Regular Member cbpeck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris.R.Anderson View Post
    Some states don't have that problem, you are allowed LETHAL force just to detain a felon like this guy. Maybe we ought to look into copying those style of laws for Washington.
    Not sure what state you're referring to.

    While the animal's behavior was egregious, I don't think you could get away with saying, "I shot him in the back as he was running because I believe he's a felon." Cops show up and they don't have a clue what happened, other than "the guy with the gun shot that guy over there after he punched this guy." I wouldn't trust the witnesses.

    I don't think shoot to detain is all that great of a plan. It seems to go right up there with intentionally shooting someone in the leg rather than center mass. Sounds good the first time you hear it, for about 5 seconds, then the attraction starts to fade.

  25. #25
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    I concur with many thoughts on this issue and do not really want just to repeat what has been said.

    One item of concern that comes to mind in this if one choose to draw their weapon in the defense of another, as in this case a disabled mentally challenged man being threatened by a younger physical man or considerable larger size and strength fully meets the use of force.
    Now what comes of a little concern, someone intervenes of sizable strength and stature of the POS the use of force changes from person intervening to the POS and now the use of deadly force may be out of play as we must respond with reasonable force and not more then necessary.

    Each of us will have to determine to what level of force could be used and articulated to law enforcement or the jury of how the law applied at that moment in time.

    Personally I feel that my approach would be close to engaging the POS verbally and physically if need be to block him and have someone call 911.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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