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Thread: What does, a dog, no knock, WAC, and ATF, have in common?

  1. #1
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    What does, a dog, no knock, WAC, and ATF, have in common?

    i have no cites, very little info, and this isnt even first hand!

    a friend of my friend is a WAC member,
    early this morning ATF broke down his door,
    shot his dog,
    almost shot him,
    took all his guns,
    didnt arrest him.

    reason given, that he sells gun "to make a profit"!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    And I am selling the Golden Gate Bridge Cheap, interested?

    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  3. #3
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Wow. That's pretty Effed up...
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

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    Molōn labe!

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    And I am selling the Golden Gate Bridge Cheap, interested?

    How much?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

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  5. #5
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    How much?
    Hmm I will have to reconsider you have someone biting on the story

    I was going to ask $1.25 but who knows maybe an easy Million Sun Flower Seeds...
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Not to get too far off topic, but I am not against "no knock warrants" in certain situations.

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    Strange, I'm not seeing anything about this situation in the local news media ...

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    No pictures... it didn't happen

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    ^^^ sold!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    And I am selling the Golden Gate Bridge Cheap, interested?


    I have some great property in Florida I can trade.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmarine View Post
    Well, suppose you were at home watching the tube with your wife/girlfriend when suddenly your door gets kicked in and a flashbang goes off... You're disoriented, your wife doesn't know what's going on, suddenly you have a boot in your neck, an MP5 in your face, your retinas are burning, and all you can think is "WTF is going on?!?! What did I do? Who the hell is in my house?" There was no knock, no forewarning, just all of a sudden you go from making time with the lady to face buried in the carpet with no idea of what's going on. Then they say they "think" you may have done something.

    Essentially, my point is if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. What's to stop them from abusing even EXTREMELY limited circumstances for a no knock warrant? They already abuse enough things, why give them another? (Remember the Magna Carta).

    You're so quick to condemn the Hitlers of the world, you're so quick to condemn Nazism (aka Fascism, which, for the record, I despise), but then you advocate it in the form of no-knock warrants!

    In closing, we simply can not give agents of the state and/or country that much leeway, we can not give them that much power. After all, all power is supposed to be inherent to the people, and if WE relinquish too much power, we will be left powerless.
    Especially considering the fact that sometimes the cops go to the wrong house.

    You hear the sound of a door breaking in, you hear the sound of multiple men shouting, but being half asleep you cant hear what they are saying. You quickly grab your pistol and flashlight, walk out the door.............. a few moments, and 75 shots later you have 6 bullets in your body, 30, in your floor 30 in your walls, and 9 in your ceiling. You are now paralyzed for life and perhaps even charged with threatening the lives of the officers.

    When its all over someone discovers, oh this is 1234 N.E fake ST? ooops we wanted 1234 SE fake st. sorry our bad.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    Especially considering the fact that sometimes the cops go to the wrong house.

    You hear the sound of a door breaking in, you hear the sound of multiple men shouting, but being half asleep you cant hear what they are saying. You quickly grab your pistol and flashlight, walk out the door.............. a few moments, and 75 shots later you have 6 bullets in your body, 30, in your floor 30 in your walls, and 9 in your ceiling. You are now paralyzed for life and perhaps even charged with threatening the lives of the officers.

    When its all over someone discovers, oh this is 1234 N.E fake ST? ooops we wanted 1234 SE fake st. sorry our bad.
    EXCELLENT POINT... the other thing that bears in mind is the fact that WA state law CLEARLY and WITHOUT any sort of compunctions states that I am entitled to defend myself in ANY place I have the legal right to be at.... If "ZOG/someone" just busts down my door without any sort of warning or WARRANT how I am to know they are the FATPO (Federal Anti Terrorism POlice)? If they dont have they COMMON DECENCY to respect me and my property than what gives them the right to say that I CAN'T shoot them as I dont know who the F!#@$ they are???!!!???!!!????!!!!!

    Ammurica needs to change and change SOON.

    I for one WILL NOT stand for this kind of BS high and mighty Gubmet knows all and is only looking out for you BS!

    The time to change the status quo is quickly approaching...what side will you be on???
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
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    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

  13. #13
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmarine View Post
    Well, suppose you were at home watching the tube with your wife/girlfriend when suddenly your door gets kicked in and a flashbang goes off... You're disoriented, your wife doesn't know what's going on, suddenly you have a boot in your neck, an MP5 in your face, your retinas are burning, and all you can think is "WTF is going on?!?! What did I do? Who the hell is in my house?" There was no knock, no forewarning, just all of a sudden you go from making time with the lady to face buried in the carpet with no idea of what's going on. Then they say they "think" you may have done something.

    Essentially, my point is if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. What's to stop them from abusing even EXTREMELY limited circumstances for a no knock warrant? They already abuse enough things, why give them another? (Remember the Magna Carta).

    You're so quick to condemn the Hitlers of the world, you're so quick to condemn Nazism (aka Fascism, which, for the record, I despise), but then you advocate it in the form of no-knock warrants!

    In closing, we simply can not give agents of the state and/or country that much leeway, we can not give them that much power. After all, all power is supposed to be inherent to the people, and if WE relinquish too much power, we will be left powerless.
    +1000

    An then there's the old guy in Colorado who got killed when they raided the wrong house, the governments response something to the effect, he'd still be alive if he didn't own a gun.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  14. #14
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    i have no cites, very little info, and this isnt even first hand!

    a friend of my friend is a WAC member,
    early this morning ATF broke down his door,
    shot his dog,
    almost shot him,
    took all his guns,
    didnt arrest him.

    reason given, that he sells gun "to make a profit"!
    I'm not going to be ****** and jump to the conclusion that a well respected and posted member on here is selling me a BS story.

    I understand the reason why you are being vague and if you can share more details as you learn more about this case in PM or later I would like to know more about this.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 11-19-2010 at 09:52 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    That's why a professional organization like a police force NEEDS to be absolutely 100% sure of their target house, There should be no ifs, ands or butts on the certainty of it. If a police force is getting the wrong house on a warrant, then maybe they need to re-evaluate theirs career choice.

    I look at it like this: In a case of apprehending a heavily armed and violent group of suspects, knocking prior to a warrant could be a death wish. It's basically alerting them to go grab their weapons to engage in a fire fight. I do not see how this in unconstitutional in any way if it comes by way of a court issued warrant and sufficient evidence shows that a no knock warrant is encouraged to help protect the lives of the officers.

    The U.S. Constitution is designed to be interpreted. If the Supreme Court feels that no knock warrants are still within the realms of the Constitution and the 4th Amendment, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as sufficient evidence is presented to suggest it's the only reasonable option.

    The power should be given to the State's, and organizations like the DEA should be abolished, leaving full Federal Authority to the FBI.

    I honestly see no constitutional problem for no knock warrants under the general circumstances of:

    # Circumstances that present a threat of physical violence
    # There is "reason to believe that evidence would likely be destroyed if advance notice were given"
    # Knocking and announcing would be dangerous or "futile"
    # However, the Court expressly stated that whether or not reasonable suspicion exists depends in no way on whether police must destroy property in order to enter

    As long as absolute, credible evidence is provided to determine certainty on their target house.
    Last edited by Aaron1124; 11-19-2010 at 10:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    And I am selling the Golden Gate Bridge Cheap, interested?

    Sorry, that bridge was mine for years. I called Private Eminent Domain.

    So what in the hell was the BATF thinking? Was this even reasonable? SERIOUSLY, YOU CAN'T MAKE A PROFIT SELLING GUNS?!!! WHO IN THE HELL ARE THEY TO DETERMINE THAT?!!

    I am going to blow a gasket here, this reminds me of the Redcoats coming to Concord to confiscate the guns from the Minuteman.

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    Regular Member GreatWhiteLlama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    Especially considering the fact that sometimes the cops go to the wrong house.

    You hear the sound of a door breaking in, you hear the sound of multiple men shouting, but being half asleep you cant hear what they are saying. You quickly grab your pistol and flashlight, walk out the door.............. a few moments, and 75 shots later you have 6 bullets in your body, 30, in your floor 30 in your walls, and 9 in your ceiling. You are now paralyzed for life and perhaps even charged with threatening the lives of the officers.

    When its all over someone discovers, oh this is 1234 N.E fake ST? ooops we wanted 1234 SE fake st. sorry our bad.
    http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

  18. #18
    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    Redcoats, Gestapo, BATF.
    Proud GeorgiaCarry.org Member
    The only government control I need, is a good set of grips on my 1911.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    That's why a professional organization like a police force NEEDS to be absolutely 100% sure of their target house, There should be no ifs, ands or butts on the certainty of it. If a police force is getting the wrong house on a warrant, then maybe they need to re-evaluate theirs career choice.

    I look at it like this: In a case of apprehending a heavily armed and violent group of suspects, knocking prior to a warrant could be a death wish. It's basically alerting them to go grab their weapons to engage in a fire fight. I do not see how this in unconstitutional in any way if it comes by way of a court issued warrant and sufficient evidence shows that a no knock warrant is encouraged to help protect the lives of the officers.

    The U.S. Constitution is designed to be interpreted. If the Supreme Court feels that no knock warrants are still within the realms of the Constitution and the 4th Amendment, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as sufficient evidence is presented to suggest it's the only reasonable option.

    The power should be given to the State's, and organizations like the DEA should be abolished, leaving full Federal Authority to the FBI.

    I honestly see no constitutional problem for no knock warrants under the general circumstances of:

    # Circumstances that present a threat of physical violence
    # There is "reason to believe that evidence would likely be destroyed if advance notice were given"
    # Knocking and announcing would be dangerous or "futile"
    # However, the Court expressly stated that whether or not reasonable suspicion exists depends in no way on whether police must destroy property in order to enter

    As long as absolute, credible evidence is provided to determine certainty on their target house.

    However, we should also consider that a "no knock" situation may actually put LEO at more risk of harm.
    If some cops kick a door down, the people inside might grab their weapons thinking that they are being attacked by other criminals. Most criminals are probably not going to wait for a target, but will just open fire through the walls.

    Announcing your presence before hand, gives them a chance to give up. This may save the cops from having to get into a firefight and being shot, or accidentally shooting others in the house that aren't involved, or are trying to surrender.
    This can be done safely, even in the situations you described where there is significant risk of the suspects intending to get into a battle with police.
    I would say the biggest danger is to the LEO actually standing at the door knocking. To help this, they could first surround the house and then make announcements on a bull horn from a safe(er) distance. They could phone the house, they could put some sort of device at the door that will knock on it. This could be done with entry teams standing by.
    There are ways to announce your presence and intentions without actually standing at the door knocking.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by commander1911 View Post
    redcoats, gestapo, batf.

    tsa, dea, irs.....................
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 11-19-2010 at 12:19 PM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  21. #21
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    TSA = Nazi SS

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    . . . . Yawn . . . .

  23. #23
    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    A friend of mine a good 15 years ago had this happen to him. Cops were looking for a shooter. They kicked in his door while he was half asleep on the couch. They threw him to the ground and in true police fashion they're all screaming different orders so he can't comply with all of them giving them a reason to beat his ass. Needless to say, it was the wrong apartment. There was also a COPS film crew there. When his lawyer tried to requisition the video for his lawsuit it magically disappeared.

    They tried the 'fit the description excuse' but they found out later the suspect was a 5' 6" black guy around 150-170lbs. My friend is 6' and 225.

    The very fact that police dept. will cover their ass so fast as to overlook apologizing or changing their tactics leads to me not trusting them as much as I should.


    What about the big bad pot dealer in Tacoma who killed a cop because they no knocked his house at 4 am while he was asleep. They could've easily grabbed him at work because they were already surveying him. Nope, because they wanted to GI Joe up and act bad ass in the middle of the night. As a result an officer needlessly died.
    Last edited by gsx1138; 11-19-2010 at 12:33 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    EXCELLENT POINT... the other thing that bears in mind is the fact that WA state law CLEARLY and WITHOUT any sort of compunctions states that I am entitled to defend myself in ANY place I have the legal right to be at.... If "ZOG/someone" just busts down my door without any sort of warning or WARRANT how I am to know they are the FATPO (Federal Anti Terrorism POlice)? If they dont have they COMMON DECENCY to respect me and my property than what gives them the right to say that I CAN'T shoot them as I dont know who the F!#@$ they are???!!!???!!!????!!!!!

    Ammurica needs to change and change SOON.

    I for one WILL NOT stand for this kind of BS high and mighty Gubmet knows all and is only looking out for you BS!

    The time to change the status quo is quickly approaching...what side will you be on???
    "ZOG"? The 'Zionist Occupation Government'?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmarine View Post
    There was no knock, no forewarning, just all of a sudden you go from making time with the lady to face buried in the carpet with no idea of what's going on.
    Sounds like a good time to me. xD



    But seriously. A no knock entry would probably get most people on this forum killed. I am pretty sure that most everyone has their firearm on them when they're relaxing at home. If the door comes crashing open, the gun comes out. If an entry team with submachine guns sees an armed "suspect" they open fire. I can see in very rare circumstances where a no knock is needed, but in most cases it just causes a very big danger.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

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