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Thread: OK. My second encounter with a LEO.

  1. #1
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    OK. My second encounter with a LEO.

    Actually four of them. I don't want to go through all the details here, they will be posted on AlabamaOpenCarry.com. Check the Open Carry Stories Forum.

    I was more confident this time, knew the law well, and ran my recorder. Still, even though I handled this incident more competently, my mouth did go a little dry.

    Anyway, there still is a problem that my first encounter didn't completely solve. This time they did not try to seize my weapon and believed me when I said that they could not demand my name and address without RAS. However, they were polite, but again they were very wrong on the law.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Tease.

    You can copypasta if you don't want to type it all out again. :P

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    OK. It's gonna read a bit funny since I'll be joining several posts into one.

    OK, my second encounter: It was not as scary this time. I was more confident. I knew the law and knew it was on my side. I was recording the event from the get. (I start my recorder when I leave the house. Come to think of it, I forgot it today and went home to get it. Glad I did.) The officers were polite and indicated that they had no intention to arrest me. They were just, once again, wrong on the law. I will be emailing Lt. Col. Thompson again tomorrow. However, I have heard that the new chief is anti-gun, so I don't know where this is going.

    Anyway, it started in Ross, where a man came up to me and asked me if I was a police officer. I said no. He asked if I had a permit. I don't think I answered him, just looked puzzled. He told me I can't carry it openly like that, that I have to conceal it. I told him that that is not what the law says. He walked away. He went over to a store worker and left him visibly upset. I don't know what happened there, but he clearly did not get satisfaction. I happened by him later and handed him a card. He told me, "I don't want that!" I said, "OK, sir," and walked away. Anyone overhearing our conversations, as short as they were, should have come away thinking he was hyper and I was polite and nonplussed. I think he called the cops.

    I went to World Market and to Pier One and to Target. No one seemed to take notice, as it should be. But, someone else called the police. Three officers were waiting for me when I left and a fourth came out shortly after I did.
    ______________________

    I saw the officers and did not change direction. One of them subtly motioned me over, so I walked up to them, offered my hand to each one and greeted them. They might not have thought so (actually, I'm sure they didn't), but four officers three in front, one behind, motioning me over to them constitutes as stop. I did not feel as though I was free to leave. That meant they needed RAS, which they did not have. At one point in time, they even told me I was free to go. Why would they say this unless they thought I thought I was being detained. If I reasonably believed that I was being detained, according to the courts, I was.

    During the course of the encounter, several member of the public were *gasp* alarmed by the presence of the police, not by me! The officers took a move-along-nothing-to-see-here attitude. So I handed everyone who asked a card for the site and told them the whole story would be posted here tonight. I also gave each officer a card. Most of them were receptive. Their supervisor took the card, but seem disinterested and indicated she probably wouldn't check it out. One of the officers seemed very interested. I think he'll at least read, even if he doesn't join.

    Anyway, I am reviewing the recording now. I will post details as I encounter them.
    _____________________________

    Got to 2:27 on the tape. Talking with the officers about RAS and when they can demand name, address, and explanation. One officer is telling me that AL law says we must carry photo ID. I asked him for a cite. He couldn't give me one. I explained that I have been all through the law and have only found where an officer with RAS may demand name, address, and an explanation of our actions. So, MPD does not train its officers well on RAS or Terry. They allow myths like a requirement for photo ID to be perpetuated.

    They asked nicely, specifically not under color of law, so I gave them my name and address. No explanation of my actions was forthcoming.

    At 2:34 on the tape, the fourth officer made his presence known. I handed him a card, as I had the other three. He asked me if I had a permit. I told him that I didn't have it on me. He stated that, and I am quoting here, "Alarm supersedes your right to carry.

    Wow. The emotions of others outweigh our right to protect ourselves? No, officer. You are as wrong as wrong gets.

    At 2:37, "If you don't have a pistol permit on you, you can go to jail." Wrong again.

    I pleaded with them to check the law. They told me, "You're free to go," (another indication that they believed that I was being detained up until that point. So, the official detention lasted 10 minutes. I reminded the officers that they were free to go also and that I was free to stay. We all stayed.

    At 2:40, I asked them a few times to check with Lt. Col. Thompson. They offered to have their supervisor come out. (She was cited as the source for the "Alarm supersedes your right to carry" statement. I agreed and they called her.

    One of the officers asked me to state the law on "public alarm." I told him it was the disorderly conduct law and that it was a crime to intentionally or recklessly cause public alarm and that exercising the right with a properly holstered firearm could not do that.

    At 2:42, an officer explains that Target does not want me on his property. We end up in a discussion where he insists that he can trespass me, and I explain that only the owner or his representative can trespass me, and that, if he does, I will comply with his wishes. Much later the supervisor tried again to tell me that Target was going to trespass me. I had the same discussion with her. She whipped out her code, read up on trespass, and agreed with me. She called the manager over. He told her that he called corporate, and they said he couldn't trespass me unless there was an incident in the store. A bit embarrassing for the officers.

    I will be contacting corporate and praising their manager.

    At 2:47, a lady inquires what is going on she is alarmed by all the armed officers! They tell her that nothing is going on, just talking. I hand her a card and tell her that she can read all about on this website.

    At 3:00, I get the names of two of the officers, Robert Petipat and Cpl. Shelley Watts.

    We get into an OC v. CC discussion. I relate the story from the Kennesaw Waffle House. They raised the possibility of BGs targeting OCers. I pointed out that OCers being taken out of their guns being snatched just don't happen.

    I got the name of a third officer. It slipped by. I'll post it later. He was VERY interested in open carry. He was unsure of the law when challenged by another officer. I believe he will be stopping by and reading a lot. I hope he posts. Of the four officers, he impressed me as the most professional.

    At 3:08, the supervisor arrived. Sgt. Smith. A lot of platitudes followed. She claimed to have "reasonable articulation that [I am] causing alarm in a public place."

    At 3:16, the sergeant asked about my prior military and/or LEO experience. I told her that I served 20 years in the AF, part of it as a LEO, a security policeman. She went on to talk about carrying in hostile areas and wearing vests and going on possibly dangerous calls, etc. She also wondered why I would do "this." I explained that I am hoping to get the public used to guns again.

    She wondered why I would risk getting trespassed. I explained that I didn't mind being told I couldn't shop somewhere, that I'd simply call corporate and post what happened on here and OCDO. She then called the manager, Vincent Wooden (sp?) to handle the formality of getting me trespassed. He wouldn't do it. "I'm unable to do that. I called corporate..." She seemed disappointed. I thanked Vincent profusely and said that he would be praised on the site.

    Vincent asked if I was part of the group who met at the Starbuck's in Prattville.

    The sergeant said she could pat me down. She asked me to get on YouTube and look up officer-involved shooting. Her job is dangerous. She is out there protecting me. She doesn't get the difference between "responding" and "stopping."

    3:26, encounter ends.

    So, it wasn't two hours. Just one. It seemed like two hours. I started the recording very close to 11:30, when I left the house, so, if you subtract one-half an hour from the times, you get the clock time.

    I am going to upload the recording to my computer, edit out my private information, eliminate dead spots, and upload it to the Internet so everyone can get the full story with all the details. The recording quality is surprisingly good.

    Then tomorrow, I'll email Lt. Col. Thompson. Monday morning, I'll start the documents request process...again. I still don't intend to sue, but pretty soon, if MPD does not get its act together, I will. It'll be a heckuva case with these well-documented multiple cases.
    __________________________

    OK, the names of the officers:

    Officer Robert Petipas
    Cpl. Shelley Watts
    Officer Ryan Gibson
    Sgt. Smith

    Officer Ryan Gibson was the most professional and the most curious.

    I did not get the fourth officer's name. Sgt. Smith was the supervisor who came by later.

  4. #4
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    She could pat you down? So what? Even if she could legally what would she gain? Do you think she was hoping to get to search for your BUG and see your permit for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    She could pat you down? So what? Even if she could legally what would she gain? Do you think she was hoping to get to search for your BUG and see your permit for that?
    Nothing, other than I won't submit to a pat down without being properly compensated. (That means you, too, TSA!)

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    wow, the Alabama police community needs to get their act together - way behind the times - maybe send city leaders the link to the recent settlement in Allentown, PA for police seizure of an open carrier - $23,500, see http://www.mcall.com/news/local/carp...,318503.column

    Also, you all need to take on the localities who claim to have banned open carry at city halls - clear preemption violations - this could be done by law suit in state court, rallys outside city hall demanding to enter public meetings, etc.

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    Yes, we are working on those things. The particular member who was aggressively dealing with the city hall issue is now battling an unrelated disorderly conduct charge for playing chess with a homeless man in a park while armed.

    The fiend.

    He is understandably tempering his advocacy at the moment, being out of the hoosegow at the pleasure of the judge in the case.

    This event was far less egregious than the last, so that's progress. I'll be contacting the deputy chief of police and the city attorney again to push the line even further. We have plans to lobby the legislature in March and will be pushing for the new AG to take a stronger stance reigning in rogue city councils and LEAs. After the trial in March, our city-hall-sign guy will be back with a vengeance--and pursuing a civil suit against the BPD. MPD are toy poodles compared to BPD.
    Last edited by eye95; 11-20-2010 at 06:48 PM.

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    Oh, and any demonstration outside city hall would have to be with empty holsters. Which means they'd gesture to us to come on in!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Yes, we are working on those things. The particular member who was aggressively dealing with the city hall issue is now battling an unrelated disorderly conduct charge for playing chess with a homeless man in a park while armed.

    The fiend.

    He is understandably tempering his advocacy at the moment, being out of the hoosegow at the pleasure of the judge in the case.

    This event was far less egregious than the last, so that's progress. I'll be contacting the deputy chief of police and the city attorney again to push the line even further. We have plans to lobby the legislature in March and will be pushing for the new AG to take a stronger stance reigning in rogue city councils and LEAs. After the trial in March, our city-hall-sign guy will be back with a vengeance--and pursuing a civil suit against the BPD. MPD are toy poodles compared to BPD.
    Yet at no less than two gun shows, I've openly carried a Mosin-Nagant rifle, slung, in front of and through security (provided by sworn officers of the a police department in uniform) and never been accosted. And one of those shows was at a facility owned by the taxpayers.
    Last edited by Kirbinator; 11-21-2010 at 07:21 PM.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    Yet at no less than two gun shows, I've openly carried a Mosin-Nagant rifle, slung, in front of and through security (provided by sworn officers of the a police department in uniform) and never been accosted. And one of those shows was at a facility owned by the taxpayers.
    loaded? did they zip tie the bolt?

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    You don't have to unload unless you want to go inside. Besides, what does it matter if it is loaded or not? Alabama doesn't make a distinction between loaded and unloaded carry. If OC were illegal, that would include UOC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    loaded? did they zip tie the bolt?
    I left the rounds out of it, but bought two 20-packs of corrosive ammo in paper boxes. The first time, I had the bolt, which of course was a hoot to see them try to figure out, and the second time I didn't even have the bolt, so they "secured" a non-operable rifle.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdonalk View Post
    You don't have to unload unless you want to go inside. Besides, what does it matter if it is loaded or not? Alabama doesn't make a distinction between loaded and unloaded carry. If OC were illegal, that would include UOC.
    You didn't get a chance to see this, and I should have pulled out the camera and taken pictures but at the masonic shrine in Montgomery, there were large signs to the effect of "NO LOADED WEAPONS" and "YOUR CHL ISNT GOOD HERE". That's from memory but these things were poster-sized, written in marker. And one bored police officer inside who apparently chased eye95 for soliciting people with The Code of Alabama. =P
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    You didn't get a chance to see this, and I should have pulled out the camera and taken pictures but at the masonic shrine in Montgomery, there were large signs to the effect of "NO LOADED WEAPONS" and "YOUR CHL ISNT GOOD HERE". That's from memory but these things were poster-sized, written in marker. And one bored police officer inside who apparently chased eye95 for soliciting people with The Code of Alabama. =P
    Actually, the people running the show asked us not to solicit near the door. I got the message second-hand through, I think, DJDD. We moved further from the door in the parking lot and had no further problems.

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    Kudos to you on your conduct. I realize it is immensely more stressful wearing the shoes, than it is to simply sit and listen to the conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    The cops were uneducated but polite. That's something, maybe a first step.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackOR View Post
    Is it legal for a female officer to pat down a male?
    To my knowledge, there is no law against it. However, if it turns out that she should not have patted down a male, such as during an illegal stop, then I suspect she may be open to sexual assault charges. IANAL.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It's an issue of BFOQ - Bona Fide Occupational Qualification. There are certain occupations - police & prison guards among the most common - where it has been ruled by both the courts and EEOC that there is no BFOQ issue because of the overriding concerns for security and immediacy of conducting the search. Most LEAs teach a palms-out technique for pat-downs in opposite-sex situations but IIRC recent court cases have said "officer safety" can override what would otherwise be considered a sexual touch. Sorry, but my google-fu is DOA at the moment because I can't find my bookmark on the announcement.

    stay safe.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It's always better to have hands-on contact done by same-sex official.

    Except when you are touching a minor child who has not obviously entered puberty. In those cases it is better to have a female make the physical contact because men are just pedobears, donchanoe.

    And yes, NavyLt, you got that part absolutely correct. You may go to the head of the class.

    stay safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It's always better to have hands-on contact done by same-sex official.

    Except when you are touching a minor child who has not obviously entered puberty. In those cases it is better to have a female make the physical contact because men are just pedobears, donchanoe.

    And yes, NavyLt, you got that part absolutely correct. You may go to the head of the class.

    stay safe.
    no, I prefer females for any touching of my genitals.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I'll take a pat down by a female officer over a male officer any day....

    "Sir, is that a gun in your pocket?"

    "No, ma'am, you're just really good!"
    I speak from experience, they don't think it's funny at all.

    Didn't stop me from laughing my ass off tho....

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    no, I prefer females for any touching of my genitals.
    This bring up an interesting point.

    Since Opposite Sex isn't the exclusive realm of Sexual Interest, it is entirely sensible to presume that even Same Sex Officers might be homosexual and groping/deriving sick pleasure from their 'frisking.'

    It might be interesting for a Male OCer to say that he doesn't want Gay Male Cops groping him, and demand a homosexual Female Officer perform the search? It may not fly, but at least you get to call the traitors a bunch of *****.... Not that there is anything wrong with being Gay. But I find a correlation between cops that disregard Rights, and anti-gay prejudice. It seems to have the same mind at work, they would be insulted by it.

    "If you have any Female Homosexual Officers available, that wouldn't derive the pleasure from it that you would, I'm requesting they perform the search instead of you."

    Oh damn... Imma have to do that next time.

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    I don't much care if the person derives any pleasure from it. I don't care if the guy is hetero or the woman is ****, I simply don't want a guy handling my junk. It's probably more of a territorial thing.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Kloutier's Avatar
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    Did the LEO department ever contact you back about the whole issue?

  25. #25
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Personally, I would insist on a female giving me a pat down. What fun is having your junk man handled, I want it handled by a woman. Hot women preferable; but any woman will do. After all, once you've seen one woman naked....... you wanna see'em all naked... (sip)

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