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Thread: School Zones

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    School Zones

    I am unfamiliar with the legality of carrying near schools. Of course I am aware that it is against Federal law to carry a firearm into a school. However, it is also illegal to carry within 1000 feet of a school per federal law. I have heard that many states CC license allows an individual to carry inside the 1000 foot bubble, just not on property. Does anybody know? I do not remember anything specific to this in KY's laws. I imagine no license OC would be illegal within 1000 feet of schools as well.

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    According to Federal law, no one can carry a firearm within a 1000 feet of a school unless they have a permit to do so. KY law says that no one, regardless of permit can carry on school property but there's no kind of radius as the federal law has. One may deduce that in KY, no one can carry on school property but those that have their CCDW may carry within the radius.

    -For the record, I believe the KRS is contrary to the KY Constitution.

    -There are exceptions in regards to carrying on school property in that one may keep a gun in their car or have one in their car as they drop off their kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    KY law says that no one, regardless of permit can carry on school property
    Actually, the law says that one cannot carry openly or concealed on pre-secondary education properties unless they have prior permission from school authorities
    Quote Originally Posted by Open Carry.org Member View Post
    I really disgree with this one! That means that we can have any yahoo running around with a gun with out the proper training. This really scares the hell out of me. Just my two-cents!
    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Joe Schmedlap out there with a loaded weapon thinking he's going to deter crime and he's not even trained to fire his weapon safely just kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

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    That would be one of the exceptions that I vaguely referred to. Didn't think it would be worth mentioning.

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    doesn't the federal law say something about willful or knowingly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKSuddeth View Post
    doesn't the federal law say something about willful or knowingly?
    18 USC ss 922

    (2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
    possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
    interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
    firearm -
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
    so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
    political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
    such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
    political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
    under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is -
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
    on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school
    in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
    between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
    employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official
    capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while
    traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to
    public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
    premises is authorized by school authorities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by catass View Post
    Actually, the law says that one cannot carry openly or concealed on pre-secondary education properties unless they have prior permission from school authorities
    What about in a car?
    Speed is fine
    Accuracy is final

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    What about in a car?
    Unloaded in a locked case, not concealable, not readily available to the vehicles occupants

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkshadow62988 View Post
    Unloaded in a locked case, not concealable, not readily available to the vehicles occupants
    That would be incorrect. In Kentucky in accordance with KRS 237.110 you may carry in your car as long as the weapon remains in your car and you do not present it (wave) to anyone.
    Speed is fine
    Accuracy is final

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    That would be incorrect. In Kentucky in accordance with KRS 237.110 you may carry in your car as long as the weapon remains in your car and you do not present it (wave) to anyone.
    If you're in a school zone be careful because there is no KRS exception in Federal code for people who don't have permits and drive into school zones.
    Last edited by kwikrnu; 11-21-2010 at 10:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    That would be incorrect. In Kentucky in accordance with KRS 237.110 you may carry in your car as long as the weapon remains in your car and you do not present it (wave) to anyone.
    That's nice. Good to see that Kentucky decided not to shove ******************* but federal law requires you to have a license issued by the state you are in. Unlicensed open carry withing a thousand feet of a school is a federal crime.

    ----Moderator Edited----
    --Warning on language--

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    No carry license? Use this schools map for your state:
    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...36,7.03125&z=8
    Last edited by Bill Starks; 12-01-2010 at 02:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkshadow62988 View Post
    That's nice. Good to see that Kentucky decided not to shove ******************* but federal law requires you to have a license issued by the state you are in. Unlicensed open carry withing a thousand feet of a school is a federal crime.

    ----Moderator Edited----
    --Warning on language--
    I don`t thank state or local police are obligated to enforce federal law, remember we the states created the federal government, not the other way around, all state LEO would have to do is arest federal agents for trespassing if thay chose to enforce their unconstitutional laws, but we the people need to stand with one voice to tell are states that the 10th admendmentis alive and well. Remember... "WE THE PEOPLE" have all the power.

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    As long as it is in your cars factory installed glove box it is legal but only if your dropping off or picking up I not believe you can keep it in your car while you go inside maybe wrong on that last part but just keep it in your glove box and your good ccdw license or not you can keep a firearm in your glove box and have it loaded but it has to be factory installed and on passenger side NO CENTER CONSOLE ALLOWED WITH OUT CCDW

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    Local Police are HIGHLY UNLIKELY to Enforce The Federal anti-Firearm 1000' Prohibitions around Schools, K-12, UNLESS such State in Question has also Enacted such a a 1000' Foot Firearm-Free Prohibition. Some States have, and some States have not.

    Kentucky has NOT Enacted any such Law, and probably NEVER will either.

    Either way though, Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)(B)(ii) DOES EXEMPT Permit Holders, Issued by such State, wherein The State such School, K-12, is Located.

    Again though, Kentucky is Pro-Firearm..., and Kentucky most probably would act if, and only if, such Person actually went on The Real Property of The School with a Firearm, K-12, itself..., not just merely within a 1000' of such School with a Firearm.

    P.S.: In my State of Georgia..., The Georgia General Assembly REPEALED the 1000' Draconian Prohibitions around Schools, K-12, and now it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to Openly Carry a Firearm, in compliance with Georgia Law, within 1000' of a School, K-12 or Colleges/Universities. However, The Georgia General Assembly made it ABUNDANTLY Clear that if a Person 'Stepped Foot' on The Real Property of a School, any School, regardless, with a Firearm, then, it is a Misdemeanor if you have a Permit, and a FELONY if you do not.
    Last edited by aadvark; 12-01-2010 at 02:16 PM.

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    Just to be clear

    So, according to the letter of the law (18 U.S.C. 922(q)), without a Kentucky CCDW license it is nearly impossible to legally open carry a holstered firearm? If you look at a map of school zones, it is not really possible to travel from one place to another without crossing one, or 10 for that matter. Even driving within 1000 feet of a school with a loaded gun in your glove box is a federal felony. Just between my home and my place of business I pass within 1000 feet of 23 schools in my 11 mile trip. I hope my CCDW pak comes in soon so that I can legally observe my 2nd amendment rights again.

    How close are we to repealing this atrocity of misdirected legislature???

    P.S. sorry about the rant, but this was a new one for me.. wow.. Thanks a lot President Clinton!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhussung View Post
    So, according to the letter of the law (18 U.S.C. 922(q)), without a Kentucky CCDW license it is nearly impossible to legally open carry a holstered firearm? If you look at a map of school zones, it is not really possible to travel from one place to another without crossing one, or 10 for that matter. Even driving within 1000 feet of a school with a loaded gun in your glove box is a federal felony. Just between my home and my place of business I pass within 1000 feet of 23 schools in my 11 mile trip. I hope my CCDW pak comes in soon so that I can legally observe my 2nd amendment rights again.

    How close are we to repealing this atrocity of misdirected legislature???

    P.S. sorry about the rant, but this was a new one for me.. wow.. Thanks a lot President Clinton!
    Not being one who is ready for jail time, and this law has never been enforced anywhere I can find, or at least a conviction, I believe it to be unconstitutional. Of course, you would have to spend a grunt load of money to survive the complaint, but if your on school property and carrying a firearm you are going to have more trouble from the state than the feds.
    Speed is fine
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    I definitely have no problem with gun free schools, as long as they have an armed resource officer on site, but I can't believe that this hasn't been successfully challenged yet. I guess if they haven't had anyone arrested/convicted under 922(q) as a primary offense, it is somewhat hard to challenge.

    A 5 year federal prison sentence is one of those things that can stick in the back of your brain though. No one should have to second guess themselves just because they choose to open carry.

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    Can someone please tell me where they get the 1000 ft rule? I have read what everyone is talking about and unless school zone is defined somewhere else then I don't know where you get 1000 ft at.

    Also, does this mean that I can't open carry in downtown louisa? Because I am pretty sure the whole town is within 1000 ft of a school.

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    This is a hairy one and I've heard so many different things about it. The 1,000 foot rule is a federal law, not state. As long as your weapon is inside your vehicle and NOT removed on school property, you're OK. For instance, you have to go pick up the kids, a nephew, niece or whatever at school and you have a weapon, you can not carry it with you but as long as it stays in the vehicle it's legal.

    As I understand it, there's an exemption for those with a CDWL as well.

    Some of the other guys here have a better understanding because they have dealt with with this topic deeper, they can fill in the spaces.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Can someone please tell me where they get the 1000 ft rule? I have read what everyone is talking about and unless school zone is defined somewhere else then I don't know where you get 1000 ft at.

    Also, does this mean that I can't open carry in downtown louisa? Because I am pretty sure the whole town is within 1000 ft of a school.
    OK, after searching OCDO, I think I found the info you're looking for. It was posted by gutshot back on the 4-9-11:

    "To be in compliance with all laws you need to comply with both Federal and KY. Laws.
    Federal Law: No guns within 1000' of any school property, except on private property or for holder of in state CC license.
    Ky. Law: No guns on actual school property, except if the gun stays in your car and it is not pointed or waved about.

    So, If you don't have a Ky. CCDW you need read no further. Unless you are on private property you can't be within 1000' feet of school property, and be legal.
    If you have a Ky. CCDW, the Federal law doesn't apply to you, but you must still obey the state law and see that the gun stays in the car and is not brandished. Ky wanted to make sure CCDW holders had this option and without it there would be no carry, of any kind, on school property. I don't think the Federal law has ever been used to convict anyone. I don't know of a case where anyone has been arrested for the violation of the Federal law by a State or local police officer. I don't know of any case where a person has been charged with a violation of the Federal law unless they were first charged with some other crime, this is usually an "add-on" charge to be used as leverage to convince a person to plead guilty to a secondary crime. If they agree to the quilty plea, the 1000' school zone infraction is dropped. The original law was ruled unconstitutional and many believe this one is no better and the Feds. don't seem anxious to test it".


    SOURCE: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-Ky.-Law/page2

    Post #34 on page 2
    Last edited by neuroblades; 04-18-2011 at 10:51 PM. Reason: spelling error
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Can someone please tell me where they get the 1000 ft rule? I have read what everyone is talking about and unless school zone is defined somewhere else then I don't know where you get 1000 ft at.

    Also, does this mean that I can't open carry in downtown louisa? Because I am pretty sure the whole town is within 1000 ft of a school.

    18 USC 921 Defintions

    18 USC § 921 Definitions
    (a) As used in this chapter—
    (25) The term “school zone” means—
    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or
    private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of
    a public, parochial or private school.
    (26) The term “school” means a school which provides
    elementary or secondary education, as determined
    under State law.

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    Thank you two who were helping me figure this out. I don't believe that I'm not going to be OCing in my city anymore because the whole town is within 1000ft of a school. And I have already pissed off the sheriff dept for OCing and I don't want to push my luck.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    To be quite honest, that federal law has been revised more than a few times since it was introduced back in the 90's. It needs to be revised again but this time simplify it by stating that OC is illegal IF on school property, not the 1,00 foot as it currectly states. This would make it easier for everyone, and OC'ers wouldn't have to freak out about carrying if they're simply walking down the street.

    If this law were strictly adhered to by LE, it would make it nearly impossible for OC'ers to go anywhere!
    Last edited by neuroblades; 04-19-2011 at 09:26 AM.
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  25. #25
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Title 18 U.S.C. §922(q) School Zones


    In essence, Title 18 U.S.C Part 1 Chapter 44 Section 922(q) known as the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995 currently on the books, effectively bans all concealed carry reciprocity agreements between States, by making it illegal for any person to have a functional firearm within 1000 Feet of the property line of any Elementary or High School in our country, with very few exceptions.

    Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 44 Section 922 (unlawful acts)
    United States Code - TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE - PART I - CRIMES - CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS - section 922

    BATFE Opinion (2002) on Reciprocity: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

    The original version of this law, passed in 1990, was struck down by the US Supreme Court in "United States v Lopez (1995)," because Congress had not claimed a connection to "interstate commerce," however the second version, the one which is currently on the books, was upheld as recently as 2005 by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in the case United States v Dorsey.

    One exception to this law, is if the firearm is unloaded and in a locked container.

    A second exception is having the firearm "on private property not part of school grounds." Remember, the roads/highways/sidewalks are not private property, so this exception does not apply while driving on public streets.

    A third exception, is if the person possessing the firearm has a concealed carry permit issued by the State in which the school zone is located. This means that as the law is written, and as it has been interpreted by BATFE, if a person with a concealed carry permit is in any State other than the State that physically issued their permit, and they drive within 1000 feet of any K-12 school (which is impossible to avoid) with an unlocked gun, they are committing a federal crime. Violation of this law is punishable by up to five (5) years in federal prison and a conviction will bar a person from owning firearms for life


    There was even a case in 2000 (United States v Tait) where an Alabama concealed carry permit holder was prosecuted under this federal law, for carrying a firearm in Alabama. The prosecution claimed that Mr. Tait's Alabama permit did not exempt him from the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act, even in Alabama.

    In another case, United States v Nieves-Castaño, a woman was actually convicted under the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act for having a firearm in her home! Her home (a third floor apartment) just happened to be within 1000 feet of a school and it happened to be public property (a housing project). She was not a student, and her conduct had absolutely nothing to do with the school. This conviction was upheld by the Federal Appeals Court for the First Circuit in 2007.

    Ironically, law enforcement officers carrying a handgun under LEOSA are not exempt from the GFSZA, unless they are acting in their official capacity. This means that a law enforcement officer, carrying under LEOSA while on vacation with their family, can not drive within 1000 feet of a school without risking five years in federal prison.

    Also note, there is no exception in the law for the discharge of a firearm by anyone other than a law enforcement officer acting in their official capacity on public property while in a school zone (within 1000 feet of the property line of any K-12 school), under any circumstance. This could conceivably be an issue if you're the victim of a violent crime while on public property such as roads, sidewalks, fair grounds, city parks, etc.


    Many people think this law has never been enforced. Unfortunately this is not the case. This revised law has indeed been enforced, against several people, below are a few examples:

    United States v Danks (1999) USA v. Jordan Danks

    United States v Tait (2000) (Attempted prosecution of an Alabama permit holder) 202 F3d 1320 United States v. Tait | OpenJurist

    United States v Haywood (2003) UNITED STATES of America v. Ira HAYWOOD, Appellant.

    United States v Dorsey (2005) (Upheld the revised law as constitutional) UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Nikos Delano DORSEY, Defendant-Appellant.

    United States v Smith (2005) USA v. Smith This case says that the mere movement of the gun's component parts in Interstate Commerce is enough to satisfy the jurisdictional element needed for conviction.

    United States v Nieves-Castaño (2007) UNITED STATES of America, Appellee, v. Belen NIEVES-CASTAÑO, Defendant, Appellant. A woman was convicted for having a gun in her home; which happened to be within 1000ft of a school.

    United States v Weekes (2007) [UNITED]UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. PHINEHAS WEEKES, Appellant STATES OF AMERICA v. PHINEHAS WEEKES[/url]

    United States v Benally (2007) http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-10th-circuit/1364658.html

    United States v Cruz-Rodriguez (2008) Untitled #1668141

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