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Thread: Fed's to look into Seattle Police Dept's use of Force

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Fed's to look into Seattle Police Dept's use of Force

    http://heraldnet.com/article/20101121/NEWS03/711219842

    Seems like the Federal Prosecutor for Western Washington is finally noticing a "pattern" in Seattle PD's use of force. With the recent kicking incident, as well as the shooting of John Williams, there apparently a pattern emerging.

    Perhaps she will have her people look into the overall tendency in the "Puget Sound" area to apply both physical as well as deadly force in what appears to be increasing frequency and sometimes in questionable circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    http://heraldnet.com/article/20101121/NEWS03/711219842

    Seems like the Federal Prosecutor for Western Washington is finally noticing a "pattern" in Seattle PD's use of force. With the recent kicking incident, as well as the shooting of John Williams, there apparently a pattern emerging.

    Perhaps she will have her people look into the overall tendency in the "Puget Sound" area to apply both physical as well as deadly force in what appears to be increasing frequency and sometimes in questionable circumstances.
    This isn't a bad thing, even if they find nothing wrong. It is never bad to shine a light on the actions of the police. If they haven't done anything wrong, great. That is how things should be. If they have, it is good to have it out in the open, punish those that need punishing and train those who need trained.

    Sometimes good things happen for no apparent reason - and sometimes it takes a while for a pattern to emerge.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Can anyone say: Fox guarding the hen house!

    The FED's or the government in general wants to do something about this, ZERO tolerance policy, you commit an assault against a citizen, your fired. I think all LEO's should be reminded, they are there to serve the community, not make moral judgments about the scummbags they arrest or the suspects they track down...who have been known to turn out innocent.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Can anyone say: Fox guarding the hen house!

    The FED's or the government in general wants to do something about this, ZERO tolerance policy, you commit an assault against a citizen, your fired. I think all LEO's should be reminded, they are there to serve the community, not make moral judgments about the scummbags they arrest or the suspects they track down...who have been known to turn out innocent.
    +1 but use what ever agency we can to our advantage when we are able to.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I realize that their job is stressful and they deal with bastages every day. But they should treat people with dignity and respect. When they don't, it creates a rift between them and the community. If they want to be effective at their job, they need to connect with the community again...it's all up to them.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Leatherneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneeyeross View Post
    This isn't a bad thing, even if they find nothing wrong. It is never bad to shine a light on the actions of the police. If they haven't done anything wrong, great. That is how things should be. If they have, it is good to have it out in the open, punish those that need punishing and train those who need trained.
    1++

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    So the Government is watching the Government?

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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    So the Government is watching the Government?
    I think it's more like "Big brother watching little brother" kind of thing. Like if mom goes to the store, big brother is left in charge. xD
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    The feds should be inspecting EVERY force in America for any injustice. I tend to wonder sometimes as I watch the show COPS, how many others are cringing at the illegal search and siezures, and tresspassing as a cop opens the door and walks in someones home. I think its a pandemic of over empowerment.
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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    The feds should be inspecting EVERY force in America for any injustice. I tend to wonder sometimes as I watch the show COPS, how many others are cringing at the illegal search and siezures, and tresspassing as a cop opens the door and walks in someones home. I think its a pandemic of over empowerment.

    One of many bad things about COPS is that it gives the impression that what the officers are doing on television is legal. I have seen many COPS episodes where the officers just pull a car full of people over for no reason, take them out of their car, search all of them, search the car, then let them go, telling them to have a good night.

    The average idiot American sits down for thirty minutes, watches these episodes and thinks that nobody is having their rights infringed on.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    I am sure the Feds have abused their authority just as much as "the little guy". I'd rather put my trust in one of my local departments than the FBI.

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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    The feds should be inspecting EVERY force in America for any injustice. I tend to wonder sometimes as I watch the show COPS, how many others are cringing at the illegal search and siezures, and tresspassing as a cop opens the door and walks in someones home. I think its a pandemic of over empowerment.

    They do A LOT that shouldn't be OK on COPS. It baffles me that attorneys don't just sit there, waiting for the new episode of cops so that they can get new clients. It seems they would win a lot of cases and have a lot of money.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    One of many bad things about COPS is that it gives the impression that what the officers are doing on television is legal. I have seen many COPS episodes where the officers just pull a car full of people over for no reason, take them out of their car, search all of them, search the car, then let them go, telling them to have a good night.

    The average idiot American sits down for thirty minutes, watches these episodes and thinks that nobody is having their rights infringed on.
    Biggest problem I have with the show COPS is the ones on camera, become the accuser, judge and jury, then go on to commit a bigger crime than the crime that their prisoner has commited. All to be viewed by all. What is very disturbing to me, is how few notice this, and cheer the cops on while they commit offense after offense with extreme force.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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    And yet, so few here are willing to invest a few hours to ride along with their local agency to see how things really happen on a shift . . . or about how things really happen.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    I am sure the Feds have abused their authority just as much as "the little guy". I'd rather put my trust in one of my local departments than the FBI.
    I would too but the little guys don't like policing each other, trust me I have tried.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    One of many bad things about COPS is that it gives the impression that what the officers are doing on television is legal. I have seen many COPS episodes where the officers just pull a car full of people over for no reason, take them out of their car, search all of them, search the car, then let them go, telling them to have a good night.

    The average idiot American sits down for thirty minutes, watches these episodes and thinks that nobody is having their rights infringed on.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    They do A LOT that shouldn't be OK on COPS. It baffles me that attorneys don't just sit there, waiting for the new episode of cops so that they can get new clients. It seems they would win a lot of cases and have a lot of money.
    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Biggest problem I have with the show COPS is the ones on camera, become the accuser, judge and jury, then go on to commit a bigger crime than the crime that their prisoner has commited. All to be viewed by all. What is very disturbing to me, is how few notice this, and cheer the cops on while they commit offense after offense with extreme force.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morris View Post
    And yet, so few here are willing to invest a few hours to ride along with their local agency to see how things really happen on a shift . . . or about how things really happen.
    Not to mention that "COPS" is taped in many different States and Jurisdictions. Laws are different in areas outside Washington. We don't have a "stop and identify" statute but many States do, therefore what WE think is illegal HERE is perfectly legal THERE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morris View Post
    And yet, so few here are willing to invest a few hours to ride along with their local agency to see how things really happen on a shift . . . or about how things really happen.
    There is also a TON of editing done on COPS. Traffic stops with a search don't take the 5-7 minutes we see on TV. The show edits the boring stuff and shows the viewers only the action and interesting parts.

    I highly recommend that everyone on here sign up and go for a ride along with their local PD, watch and ask questions, but not be confrontational or a civil rights attorney during the ride. You will learn a lot about what happens on the other side of the badge.

    With regards to the issues of Seattle PD and others in the area, to include Spocompton, it is about time that someone looks into what is happening. WA cops seem to have some use of force and power trip problems and I suspect that those issues begin in initial training. The Feds should start looking at what takes place in the Academy then move out from there.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandal View Post

    With regards to the issues of Seattle PD and others in the area, to include Spocompton, it is about time that someone looks into what is happening. WA cops seem to have some use of force and power trip problems and I suspect that those issues begin in initial training. The Feds should start looking at what takes place in the Academy then move out from there.

    Funny, but I was sharing that same thought with my wife the other day. Most PD's in Washington, to my knowledge, use the "Academy" for training their new officers. On the other hand, the State Patrol uses their own academy. I don't see the same type of complaints reported against State Troopers. Yes, they have different missions but traffic stops and subsequent arrests definitely do offer opportunities for abuse, just like the rest of law enforcement activities. Look at OC incidents. Troopers are good with it and it appears that it's the "Academy Graduates" that have the most issues re: Open Carry.
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    They all use the Burien or when the budget allows the Spokane Academies. WSP is the only WA LEA to use their own. The federal cops go to FLETC.

    I believe that it truly is a training issue at the most basic level and in Field Training. That is when prejudices are ingrained into the cops and that is exactly where the investigators need to be looking. It needs to be matched with follow on training through out their careers with a heavy focus on the same Constitutionally based rights that the men and women behind the badge are sworn to uphold and protect. Too bad it won't happen that way.

    I also believe that the individual state culture has a large part to play in how cops are trained. Using gun rights and OC as an example, just look at how dead the Idaho board is compared to ours. Idaho has a much stronger and more visible gun culture than Washington and the people are mostly used to it. WA cops seem to be trained that guns are bad, whereas in ID they are just part of life.
    Last edited by Vandal; 11-22-2010 at 05:23 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Funny, but I was sharing that same thought with my wife the other day. Most PD's in Washington, to my knowledge, use the "Academy" for training their new officers. On the other hand, the State Patrol uses their own academy. I don't see the same type of complaints reported against State Troopers. Yes, they have different missions but traffic stops and subsequent arrests definitely do offer opportunities for abuse, just like the rest of law enforcement activities. Look at OC incidents. Troopers are good with it and it appears that it's the "Academy Graduates" that have the most issues re: Open Carry.
    Well, depending on your state, you may have a complaint against state patrol. I've complained against 3 officers for WI, and soon to file complaints against 3 IL state patrol officers.
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    How would he have a complaint against WSP? They are the only ones who seem to remember consistently that OC is legal in WA. They don't run the at large academy, just their own.

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    WA cops seem to be trained that guns are bad, whereas in ID they are just part of life.
    Just out of curiosity, Vandal, how much time have you spent in Western Washington, specifically, the south or west of Puget Sound?

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    I was speaking in generalities based upon my experiences traveling throughout WA and having grown up in Idaho. There is a big difference.
    Last edited by Vandal; 11-23-2010 at 01:18 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Just askin' -- that's all. Generalities are not typically accurate assessments of the way things really are.
    based upon my experiences traveling throughout WA and having frown up in Idaho.
    For those that've been through BLEA ... there might be some that disagree with this particular bit of ridiculousness:
    WA cops seem to be trained that guns are bad,

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandal View Post
    WA cops seem to be trained that guns are bad, whereas in ID they are just part of life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bo View Post

    For those that've been through BLEA ... there might be some that disagree with this particular bit of ridiculousness:
    I don't agree with the generality expressed by Vandal but I do have one question of those that have been through BLEA. What is being taught there in regards to guns and Terry Stops? Why do there appear to be so many incidents where the gun becomes the sole apparent reason for the "Stop"? Are "students" being taught that that is sufficient RAS for the stop? Or are they taught how to "justify" the stop because they noticed the openly carried gun first?

    What are "students" being taught regarding the state's lack of a "Stop and ID" law? Why has this been so much of a problem of late? Is it being done by graduates of BLEA or mostly by lateral transfers from States where there are "Stop and ID laws"? Are those who leave the academy and are assigned to training officers getting "good info" from the "oldtimers" or are they merely getting "forget all that classroom crap, this is how it's done here on the street" type training.

    It really would be nice to know if our police officers are receiving proper training on what Washington State law allows and what it doesn't and that the officers are not being taught how to circumvent the intent of both laws and the Constitution of the State when it comes to citizen's rights.

    I guess a lot of this will eventually come out when Seattle's PD is given the "full exam" by the Justice Department. Maybe some of the BLEA curriculum will be examined as well.

    BTW, I have talked to some "graduates" of BLEA and it's amazing the number that think an Openly Carried firearm IS sufficient justification for a Terry Stop all by itself, even absent any other contributing factors spelled out in RCW 9.41.270

    Again, todays news included another shooting by Seattle Police Officers. Sure are a lot dying of "lead poisoning" in Seattle lately at the hands of SPD officers. Justified? Maybe. Raising Questions? Definitely.
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