Fed's to look into Seattle Police Dept's use of Force

How would he have a complaint against WSP? They are the only ones who seem to remember consistently that OC is legal in WA. They don't run the at large academy, just their own.

WA cops seem to be trained that guns are bad, whereas in ID they are just part of life.

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Just out of curiosity, Vandal, how much time have you spent in Western Washington, specifically, the south or west of Puget Sound?

I was speaking in generalities based upon my experiences traveling throughout WA and having grown up in Idaho. There is a big difference.

Just askin' -- that's all. Generalities are not typically accurate assessments of the way things really are.

based upon my experiences traveling throughout WA and having frown up in Idaho.

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For those that've been through BLEA ... there might be some that disagree with this particular bit of ridiculousness:

WA cops seem to be trained that guns are bad,

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Vandal said:

WA cops seem to be trained that guns are bad, whereas in ID they are just part of life.

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Bo said:

For those that've been through BLEA ... there might be some that disagree with this particular bit of ridiculousness:

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I don't agree with the generality expressed by Vandal but I do have one question of those that have been through BLEA. What is being taught there in regards to guns and Terry Stops? Why do there appear to be so many incidents where the gun becomes the sole apparent reason for the "Stop"? Are "students" being taught that that is sufficient RAS for the stop? Or are they taught how to "justify" the stop because they noticed the openly carried gun first?

What are "students" being taught regarding the state's lack of a "Stop and ID" law? Why has this been so much of a problem of late? Is it being done by graduates of BLEA or mostly by lateral transfers from States where there are "Stop and ID laws"? Are those who leave the academy and are assigned to training officers getting "good info" from the "oldtimers" or are they merely getting "forget all that classroom crap, this is how it's done here on the street" type training.

It really would be nice to know if our police officers are receiving proper training on what Washington State law allows and what it doesn't and that the officers are not being taught how to circumvent the intent of both laws and the Constitution of the State when it comes to citizen's rights.

I guess a lot of this will eventually come out when Seattle's PD is given the "full exam" by the Justice Department. Maybe some of the BLEA curriculum will be examined as well.

BTW, I have talked to some "graduates" of BLEA and it's amazing the number that think an Openly Carried firearm IS sufficient justification for a Terry Stop all by itself, even absent any other contributing factors spelled out in RCW 9.41.270

Again, todays news included another shooting by Seattle Police Officers. Sure are a lot dying of "lead poisoning" in Seattle lately at the hands of SPD officers. Justified? Maybe. Raising Questions? Definitely.

Bo said:

For those that've been through BLEA ... there might be some that disagree with this particular bit of ridiculousness:

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My landlord is a cop and has been for about 10 years. In our conversations the topic of guns has come up may times and the topic of OC and private gun carry has come up more than once. I have a customer who once taught at WA's BLEA and we have some very interesting chats about LE, guns and other civil rights. What I have learned is that LE are trained/indoctrinated that guns are bad in the hands of anyone but themselves or the military. As you have all but said with the quote above, there is what you are taught in the BLEA and then there is what you learn from the FTOs. The latter is what stays with you throughout your career.

In Washington state, all peace officer certifications are controlled by the Criminal Justice Training Commission. There are a total of three LE academies in Washington state: the WSP has their own in Shelton, focusing predominately on the aspects of a trooper's patrol life. Then you have two Basic Law Enforcement Academies (BLEA). One is held in frequently in Spokane at the Spokane PD training facility by Geiger Field. The largest academy is in Burien, which also hosts the Corrections Officer Academy. These focus on the general peace officer duties most often seen by a municipal officer or deputy.

In the firearms training portion, the issue of lawful carry of a firearm by a citizen (concealed or open) is discussed and trained. That is embedded in the training and has been so for many years. To make an assumption that it is not trained would be completely incorrect.

Laws change, often frequently within a single calendar year so what one recruit officer may receive may be outdated or case law improper or illegal within six months. Then you factor in that rulings by the 9th Circus versus other Circuit Courts are contrary. What is permitted say, in the 10th, is illegal in the 9th. The law evolves faster than my sister-in-law's hair coloring.

By the WAC, the BLEA is in excess of 740 hours of training with a heavy tilt towards the WAC, RCWs and the Constitutional aspects thereof (laws). Physical training aspects (firearms, DT, EVOC) are of a lesser hour count than classroom time on laws. Post BLEA, it is up to the different jurisdictions as to training on their own codes and laws (hence, the King County SO and the Seattle PD each have an additional month of training to address King County codes or Seattle Muni codes).

Yes, the issue of openly carrying a firearm is that delicate balance within LE, contrary to what some here will tell you. Do you stop and contact a subject that is open carrying a firearm while walking into a bank that has been previously robbed? Do you wait and then get reamed by the citizens and management when that fail to contact ties in with a legitimate robbery? Or how about that fellow or lady walking into the Walmart with the AR slung across the back? Certainly legal but is there the possibility of a nut about to go off half cocked and kill some co-workers? How long ago was it that we would view someone talking to themselves as crazy or potentially insane? And yet, with the advent of hands free communication, we have plenty of folks apparently talking to themselves. Evolution. The laws, as they presently exist, do not make clear distinctions of when and when not to contact, especially when doing something the local society is not comfortable or supportive of, regardless of the constitutionality of the act. Peace officers are given the power of discretion because laws rarely include "shall" or "must." The harsh fact many cannot seem to grasp is that your local society, particularly in the greater Everett-Seattle-Tacoma triplex, is opposed to guns and view guns as evil (regardless of who is carrying it). They equate guns with violence. They will tilt away from officers carrying firearms simply because their fear (whether ingrained or taught) of guns make them that way. From that pool, you draw officers and deputies, men and women who grew up thinking of guns as evil rather than a tool. Presumably, citizens and their thinking or knee jerk reacting will evolve should OC remain a legal act in this state.

More than ever, peace officers are finding those who have no issues with pointing guns at them or endangering the public. Since citizens often cower when faced with the threat, especially with firearms, they hire men and women to do that direct intervention. Since we get killed doing that, or less (like enjoying coffee in a shop), peace officers take gun threats seriously, as presumably you would.

Again, get off your internet butt and go sign up for a ride-along. Agencies like citizens to see how operations and a shift can go. Get involved with a citizen's academy. Plug into the Civil Service Commissions of your local jurisdictions. Learns, open the eyes, make smarter thoughts and comments AFTER you get to see things from something other than the idiot box.

Morris said:

Again, get off your internet butt and go sign up for a ride-along. Agencies like citizens to see how operations and a shift can go.

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I've done that at State, County, and City levels. That's where I got to witness first hand the "Now this is how it's really done" training that some FTO's impart on the "FNG's".

Nobody here doubts that LEO's face danger every day. No one here wishes them harm. What most everyone does have an issue with is the blatant "I don't care what the Law says or what your Constitutional Rights are, I don't like the idea of you carrying a gun" (or similar wording) attitude that some LEO's are displaying. Yes, the "Greater Seattle Area" is extremely liberal and has more than it's share of those who hate guns. To them it's an inconvenience that there is a 2nd Amendment and Article 1, Section 24, WA Constitution. Regardless, it is a sworn duty of every LEO to uphold both of these provisions and that does not allow for personal biases, regardless of what "community" they came from.

Thank you for giving some insight to the Academy's work. Now if there was only some way to insure that the FTO's follow up with the new officers "education" rather than imparting their own, or their department's, biases that may not be in line with the law. With hundreds of individuals out their acting as FTO's there and they should all be on the same page. Can you say that they are?

Throughout the state (as insurers or risk managers demand it), agencies follow either the PTO or the FTO model. Naturally, every training officer imparts some level of themselves on their recruit officer, no different than many businesses that use OJT or a mentor/trainee system. However, officers and deputies are exposed to three to five training officers during their tours. They may get someone who is eager and proactive, they may get someone who has a law degree, one who was a medical tech, one who is a competition shooter, one who is a member of an anti-gun group, one who is a homosexual, one who is a hardcore Christian, one who is a liberal, one who is a conservative. Cops, like any other segment of society, are different and do not march lockstep (contrary to what may get posted on this board on occasion). Any officer or deputy out there is partially made up of their training officers, including biases, beliefs and so on.

Personal biases, regardless of the Constitution, exist. How that translates to the street can sometimes mean encounters that find their way into a court and sometimes become case law. We agree that we should follow the Constitution, regardless of whether we are a peace officer or citizen. I have a personal bias against any car that has a "support your local police" or "supporter" sticker on a vehicle. Why? I know that nearly every time, the person behind that wheel doesn't give a rip about supporting anything other than their habits and complain loudly when they get legitimately stopped for a violation. More than 50% of the time, the driver is suspended or has warrants. I have a personal bias against any unmarked rig doing traffic stops. Why? Because I know it rarely ends well and smells funny to folks (rightfull so). I have a personal bias again Mountain Dew. Why? Why would anyone want to drink fizzy piss? I have a personal bias against Christians. Why? As a neo-pagan and former Seventh-Day Adventist, I realize that the faith is wrong.

Now, do I impart that on any recruit officers I have? Only the Mountain Dew part. Anyone drinking Dew isn't right in the head.

Seriously.

Morris said:

. Anyone drinking Dew isn't right in the head.

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Some one who is a Mt. Dewaphobe isn't right in the head.

Morris said:

In Washington state, all peace officer certifications are controlled by the Criminal Justice Training Commission. There are a total of three LE academies in Washington state: the WSP has their own in Shelton, focusing predominately on the aspects of a trooper's patrol life. Then you have two Basic Law Enforcement Academies (BLEA). One is held in frequently in Spokane at the Spokane PD training facility by Geiger Field. The largest academy is in Burien, which also hosts the Corrections Officer Academy. These focus on the general peace officer duties most often seen by a municipal officer or deputy.

In the firearms training portion, the issue of lawful carry of a firearm by a citizen (concealed or open) is discussed and trained. That is embedded in the training and has been so for many years. To make an assumption that it is not trained would be completely incorrect.

Laws change, often frequently within a single calendar year so what one recruit officer may receive may be outdated or case law improper or illegal within six months. Then you factor in that rulings by the 9th Circus versus other Circuit Courts are contrary. What is permitted say, in the 10th, is illegal in the 9th. The law evolves faster than my sister-in-law's hair coloring.

By the WAC, the BLEA is in excess of 740 hours of training with a heavy tilt towards the WAC, RCWs and the Constitutional aspects thereof (laws). Physical training aspects (firearms, DT, EVOC) are of a lesser hour count than classroom time on laws. Post BLEA, it is up to the different jurisdictions as to training on their own codes and laws (hence, the King County SO and the Seattle PD each have an additional month of training to address King County codes or Seattle Muni codes).

Yes, the issue of openly carrying a firearm is that delicate balance within LE, contrary to what some here will tell you. Do you stop and contact a subject that is open carrying a firearm while walking into a bank that has been previously robbed? Do you wait and then get reamed by the citizens and management when that fail to contact ties in with a legitimate robbery? Or how about that fellow or lady walking into the Walmart with the AR slung across the back? Certainly legal but is there the possibility of a nut about to go off half cocked and kill some co-workers? How long ago was it that we would view someone talking to themselves as crazy or potentially insane? And yet, with the advent of hands free communication, we have plenty of folks apparently talking to themselves. Evolution. The laws, as they presently exist, do not make clear distinctions of when and when not to contact, especially when doing something the local society is not comfortable or supportive of, regardless of the constitutionality of the act. Peace officers are given the power of discretion because laws rarely include "shall" or "must." The harsh fact many cannot seem to grasp is that your local society, particularly in the greater Everett-Seattle-Tacoma triplex, is opposed to guns and view guns as evil (regardless of who is carrying it). They equate guns with violence. They will tilt away from officers carrying firearms simply because their fear (whether ingrained or taught) of guns make them that way. From that pool, you draw officers and deputies, men and women who grew up thinking of guns as evil rather than a tool. Presumably, citizens and their thinking or knee jerk reacting will evolve should OC remain a legal act in this state.

More than ever, peace officers are finding those who have no issues with pointing guns at them or endangering the public. Since citizens often cower when faced with the threat, especially with firearms, they hire men and women to do that direct intervention. Since we get killed doing that, or less (like enjoying coffee in a shop), peace officers take gun threats seriously, as presumably you would.

Again, get off your internet butt and go sign up for a ride-along. Agencies like citizens to see how operations and a shift can go. Get involved with a citizen's academy. Plug into the Civil Service Commissions of your local jurisdictions. Learns, open the eyes, make smarter thoughts and comments AFTER you get to see things from something other than the idiot box.

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I just recently completed the Seattle Police Department Community Police Academy. It was for 10 weeks, every Thursday evening from 5:30 to 9:15 or 9:30. I had no idea that it was so involved. I learned so much. We covered every aspect of law enforcement from patrol operations and procedures to narcotics, arson, bomb squad, domestic violence, etc. I also did a ride along. Officers thanked us for spending the time to do this; they really want us to know about what they do and why. The majority of the LEOs out there are dedicated people who really are trying to make a positive contribution to society. There are people who do not belong in law enforcement, the same as people who do not belong in other occupations. LEO's jobs are difficult and dangerous from time to time; I don't know that I would want to risk my life dealing with the scumbags of the earth and risking getting shot, stabbed,etc. I encourage others on this forum to similarly get involved. You want a better police force and more understanding from the LEO'S?!? The only way to change it is to get involved! Isn't that historically how things DO get changed?!? I might feel differently if I had been illegally stopped or arrested, but even then I think I would blame the officer and not all of law enforcement. It's the same with anything else in life; if there is something you don't like and want to see changed, quit making excuses for why you can't do this or that, get involved and work for change, or quit your bitchin'! After all, we really are on the same side, we all want a safer society; LE and legally armed citizens need to work together to accomplish that. They need to understand the law and LACs, and we need to understand them and their jobs.