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Thread: Kel Tec Firearms?

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    Kel Tec Firearms?

    Hey All,

    I was wondering if anyone has owned or owns a Kel Tec firearm. I was looking at their website and am interested in a couple of them. I talked to a local gun store owner and he did not have anything good to say. Just wanted more opinions if there are some out there.

    Patriot

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    Hey All,

    I was wondering if anyone has owned or owns a Kel Tec firearm. I was looking at their website and am interested in a couple of them. I talked to a local gun store owner and he did not have anything good to say. Just wanted more opinions if there are some out there.

    Patriot
    Yes, I own 2 Keltec P32 pistols. They have been 100% reliable. They are the ultra concealable pistol, super lightweight and inexpensive. They do not look pretty and they are made of polymer. But it is a gun I can take anywhere deep concealment is needed. It is primarily my BUG and car gun.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    My wife had a P11 for a little while. Didn't like it. Long, heavy trigger pull, chewed up both our thumb knuckles, & bonks you on the head with brass. YMMV.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    I have a Keltec RFB:


    Last edited by Mainsail; 11-21-2010 at 08:22 PM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Their P32 and p3-AT are excellent "mini-guns". Super easy to conceal, my p3-AT fits in a shirt pocket, and very reliable. Great little "$200" guns. Many gun Dealers spout off about anything that doesn't cost close to $1,000 as "cheap crap". These Kel-Tec guns are great. They also make some that are not so great. Not my choice for a full sized firearm or even a rifle but for those that like them, fine by me.
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    Regular Member goforlow's Avatar
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    I have a P32 that has been 100%. I carry it often. I would not carry any firearm that I didn't trust completely. I am going to be getting a PF9 as another carry piece. I also have one of those "$1000" guns. And you can have nice guns for $250.
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    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Only Kel-Tec I'm familiar with is my P32 mouse gun.

    I've carried it as a BUG in a pocket holster since I got it a number of years ago.

    It's not elegant, it's not pretty, it's not fancy, but it has been utterly reliable with the .32 cal. JHPs I run through it.

    Pull the lever, get suitably loud noise - every time.
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    Thanks Guys,

    I really like the RFB, it is awesome...but $1880 is frakking steep. I could fully accesorize a composite mini-14 with all the bells and whistles. But I love the looks of it and the video makes it very impressive.

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    I have the p3at and bought it specifically for it's ease of carry. If the kel-tec name scares you off, look at the ruger lcp, it's basically a copy of the p3at and should shut the gun dealers pie hole. If there's one thing I cant stand it's a biased gun dealer. Especially when a lot of them have no trigger time with the guns they sell. Best thing to do is if you're interested in a particular gun, find a shooting range that will rent that gun to you. Go shoot it and make the decision for yourself.


    Last edited by SayWhat; 11-21-2010 at 09:02 PM.

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    Kei-Tec

    I have a PF9, and love it. The quality for the price is great. Maybe not the pretiest gun on the market, but I will stand behind one and not in front of one.
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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    Thanks Guys,

    I really like the RFB, it is awesome...but $1880 is frakking steep. I could fully accesorize a composite mini-14 with all the bells and whistles. But I love the looks of it and the video makes it very impressive.
    $1880? No, I shop at Mary's Pistols, so it was $1250.

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    My dad has a P3-AT and he likes it a lot. Seems like that has got to be one of thier best selling guns.

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    I have a P3AT and a P11 and 4 mags for each of them. I like them. They work fine as long as you don't limp wrist them. The trigger pull is heavy on both because pulling the triggers are actually cocking the guns.

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    My wife's EDC is the P3AT with the pocket clip installed. It's not the most powerful (or pretty) gun in the world, but she will actually carry it all the time when she would otherwise leave the 9mm option at home.

    -G20

  15. #15
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    Thanks Guys,

    I really like the RFB, it is awesome...but $1880 is frakking steep. I could fully accesorize a composite mini-14 with all the bells and whistles. But I love the looks of it and the video makes it very impressive.
    The only thing the video doesn't show is how heavy and strange the trigger pull is. All "Bullpups" suffer this as the trigger is remotely mounted relative to the actual hammer/sear location. Lots of extra mechanism that's not there in a Mini-14 or conventional AR.

    No question it has the "cool" looks but in function, there's lots of compromise that a video doesn''t show.

    For me, I'd rather spend this kind of money on a Sig 556.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  16. #16
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    The only thing the video doesn't show is how heavy and strange the trigger pull is. All "Bullpups" suffer this as the trigger is remotely mounted relative to the actual hammer/sear location. Lots of extra mechanism that's not there in a Mini-14 or conventional AR.

    No question it has the "cool" looks but in function, there's lots of compromise that a video doesn''t show.

    For me, I'd rather spend this kind of money on a Sig 556.
    The RFB was designed as a bullpup, and the engineers were well aware of the trigger issue. Having pulled the trigger on mine a number of times, I can honestly say they did it right. I have found the trigger neither heavy nor strange.

    As for compromises in function, I don’t know to what you are referring. If better handling is a compromise, then the RFB definitely “suffers” from that.
    Last edited by Mainsail; 11-22-2010 at 10:50 AM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    The RFB was designed as a bullpup, and the engineers were well aware of the trigger issue. Having pulled the trigger on mine a number of times, I can honestly say they did it right. I have found the trigger neither heavy nor strange.

    As for compromises in function, I don’t know to what you are referring. If better handling is a compromise, then the RFB definitely “suffers” from that.
    and the "bullpup design suffers from a lot more than just trigger pull issues:



    http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2005...-bad-idea.html

    "Bullpup designs are mechanically more complex, requiring a long trigger linkage, and control system linkages. This seriously degrades both control feel, and reliability, and increases bulk and weight.

    If a bullpup has a catastrophic failure, instead of the explosion being six or 8 inches in front of your eyes, its right at your eyesocket, or touching your cheekbone or ear. The only good thing is if the bolt flys back, it doesn't end up in your eye socket. They also tend to eject hot brass, and vent hot gasses in the vicinity of your eyes and ears

    Mag changes on a bullpup are much slower because they require more repositioning, and are difficult to see (if necessary) without fully dismounting the rifle.

    -- A conventional rifle allows you to see your mag changes, and is more easily maneuvered with your dominant hand, which makes mag changes easier in general. More importantly a human being can naturally bring their hands together in the dark. Magazine wells should ALWAYS be either in your dominant hand, or just in front of it, because it is far more difficult to manipulate anything dexterously that is located behind your dominant hand.

    Because of the positioning of the mag, bullpups can be difficult, or impossible to fire while prone (though this is common with some other rifle designs as well). Note in the pictures below, the magazine is by far the lowest point of the rifle; and being located behind the dominant hand, it will tend to strike the ground forcing the muzzle downward. This also causes problems with mags being warped or ripped out of the magwell, or the rifle itself being ripped out of the users hand when hitting the deck; that a conventional rifle doesn't have (the muzzle will just bounce up)

    Charging the rifle and manipulating the operating handle is often more difficult, and sometimes can't be done without dismounting the rifle, or reaching over with your support hand.

    Bullpups are naturally balanced in a non-instinctive way; the balance point on most bullpups is in between your hand and your shoulder when mounted. The only way to correct this is to put heavy things in front of your dominant hand, or to make the weapon short and light enough that this won't make a difference (and even then it will still be more awkward and less instinctive to point). This will tend to make a bullpup shift unless it is tightly mounted to your shoulder, and especially will tend to shift during rapid fire. This tendency is somewhat countered by the position of your support hand so far forward on the barrel, but not sufficiently so.

    -- A conventional rifle is balanced in between your dominant and support hands; and there are good reasons for that. A human being naturally handles things better that balance in the palm, or in front of it."


    Got to admit, they look cool though.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  18. #18
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    If a bullpup has a catastrophic failure, instead of the explosion being six or 8 inches in front of your eyes, its right at your eyesocket, or touching your cheekbone or ear. The only good thing is if the bolt flys back, it doesn't end up in your eye socket. They also tend to eject hot brass, and vent hot gasses in the vicinity of your eyes and ears
    That is pure nonsense, to say it nicely. The RFB was designed to prevent exactly that from happening. In other words, the engineers thought of that issue, and designed safety features into the gun so that even in the event of a catastrophic failure, any explosive force will vent downward out through the magazine.

    You are, however, making a point that if you search hard enough, you can find some ignorant person making ridiculous claims, and others spreading it as though it were fact through the internet. You would have an easier time searching for catastrophic failures for the Glock, as they are numerous. I own two Glocks in 10mm, and those reports don’t worry me in the least.

    If we can arrange some time sometime, I’ll let you shoot as much .308 though it as you can bring. Hopefully that will steer you towards developing some critical thinking skills. Just because someone posts it on the internet, doesn’t make it true.

  19. #19
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    I am a huge fan of the Bullpup design and the only worry I have is the trigger. In a lot it is just a "chain" running from the trigger to the rest of the internals. I don't see that as the best way to do it, but it gets the job done. I love the shorter design and hope to one day own many Bullpups. Namely a Steyr Aug, Tavor Tar-21 and KelTec RFB. I would also love to own a PS90 if there were any legal way to convert it down to the P90's barrel length in Washington. =\


    As for KelTec firearms, I have no prior experience with the but I haven't heard anything bad about them except from gun stores.
    Last edited by xxx.jakk.xxx; 11-22-2010 at 01:20 PM.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    That is pure nonsense, to say it nicely. The RFB was designed to prevent exactly that from happening. In other words, the engineers thought of that issue, and designed safety features into the gun so that even in the event of a catastrophic failure, any explosive force will vent downward out through the magazine.

    You are, however, making a point that if you search hard enough, you can find some ignorant person making ridiculous claims, and others spreading it as though it were fact through the internet. You would have an easier time searching for catastrophic failures for the Glock, as they are numerous. I own two Glocks in 10mm, and those reports don’t worry me in the least.

    If we can arrange some time sometime, I’ll let you shoot as much .308 though it as you can bring. Hopefully that will steer you towards developing some critical thinking skills. Just because someone posts it on the internet, doesn’t make it true.
    Thanks for the offer but the only .308 I shoot is in a bolt action. I spend at least one day a week at the range trying to get as many 175gr BTHP's as I can through a single hole @ 100 yards. Then I switch to 300 yards and see how many 1" or smaller groups I can make.

    Bullpups have been one of those "Good Ideas" that have been coming and going since Steyer introduced their "Space Gun". Unless an Army has ONLY a close quarters combat role, they have been slow in being accepted for a variety of reasons.

    If you like it, go for it. They're not for everyone.

    As for Critical Thinking skills, I've honed them for years, starting with an Engineering Degree. Made enough with those skills to be able to retire before most of my class as well. Thank you for the offer though.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  21. #21
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    As for Critical Thinking skills, I've honed them for years, starting with an Engineering Degree. Made enough with those skills to be able to retire before most of my class as well. Thank you for the offer though.
    ...and yet you post an opinion based only on something you read on the internet? ;-)


    I hope you at least see the irony; your avatar being a Glock which has volumes of misleading and misinterpreted internet stories circulating, and now you’re posting rumors about a gun you’ve never seen (much less fired) with no basis in fact.

    EDIT to correct: The blogger references a KelTec carbine, but doesn't appear to have ever held or fired one.
    Last edited by Mainsail; 11-22-2010 at 01:55 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    I am a huge fan of the Bullpup design and the only worry I have is the trigger. In a lot it is just a "chain" running from the trigger to the rest of the internals. I don't see that as the best way to do it, but it gets the job done. I love the shorter design and hope to one day own many Bullpups. Namely a Steyr Aug, Tavor Tar-21 and KelTec RFB. I would also love to own a PS90 if there were any legal way to convert it down to the P90's barrel length in Washington. =\


    As for KelTec firearms, I have no prior experience with the but I haven't heard anything bad about them except from gun stores.
    That’s true in some cases, and was a concern when I looked at the RFB, but I dry-fired it in the store and was amazed at what good design can do. In the past, standard rifles and shotguns were retrofitted to become bull-pups, and the triggers were horrible. I remember some company pushing a bull-pup kit for the Mossberg 500 series shotguns, and they received overwhelmingly terrible reviews. Modern bull-pups are designed to be that right from the first drawing, and it then becomes a matter of who executes the design better. I believe there are a couple NATO members that equip their soldiers with a bull-pup, and I would trust their judgment more than some internet hero presenting his theory as fact on his blog. KelTec wouldn’t have dumped tons of money into product development if they didn’t believe they could make the trigger right, and in my humble opinion, they did.

  23. #23
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    ...and yet you post an opinion based only on something you read on the internet? ;-)
    That's an assumption on your part. Incorrect I might add. I've shot the Steyer and have closely examined every bullpup design that I've seen in the local Dealer's shops. I don't see one in the future of my "collection".


    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    I hope you at least see the irony; your avatar being a Glock which has volumes of misleading and misinterpreted internet stories circulating, and now you’re posting rumors about a gun you’ve never seen (much less fired) with no basis in fact.
    Opinions are not necessarily rumors. Some are just that, opinions, and just like you, we are all entitled to them. All Opinions are not rumors and all rumors are not necessarily false. Just because it's on the Internet doesn't automatically make it unfounded.
    BTW, the only reason my Avatar shows a Glock is because I couldn't find a similar one using a Sig which is my choice for a Carry Weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    EDIT to correct: The blogger references a KelTec carbine, but doesn't appear to have ever held or fired one.
    And he admitted so. His "opinion" is based on his personal views.

    As I said, my opinion is just that. Others share it and some don't.

    Did you read way down in the article where the main reason behind a bullpup design was to be able to use a longer barrel with limited OAL?

    He showed several examples where the difference is only a matter of a couple of inches, and still maintained all the ergonomics of a standard rifle. One that is familiar to most in the dark, in the heat of combat, etc.

    Again, just like you are entitled to your choice of firearm, people are entitled to their opinions---even if they don't agree with yours.

    Enjoy your rifle, I'll enjoy mine.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    I have a PF9, and love it. The quality for the price is great. Maybe not the pretiest gun on the market, but I will stand behind one and not in front of one.
    My experience with the PF9----

    If I am not extremely careful with thumb placement I will inadvertantly hit the mag release on recoil and drop the mag out turning this weapon into a single shot, insert 2nd mag, take a shot, insert next mag,...

    Also, using cheap wolf ammo... not my defensive carry rounds I will get as many as 5 FTF per magazine. Each of the FTF rounds has a significant dimple on the primer and they all fired without problem first time through my XD9 tactical.

    So, while it is very easy for me to conceal in a pocket holster or possibly to ankle carry (haven't done this), do to the particular problems I have with the mag release I will not be using my PF9 as a primary tool or a back up tool.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Again, just like you are entitled to your choice of firearm, people are entitled to their opinions---even if they don't agree with yours.

    Enjoy your rifle, I'll enjoy mine.
    I don't have a problem with your opinion, however, you did not present it as opinion but as fact:

    All "Bullpups" suffer this as the trigger is remotely mounted relative to the actual hammer/sear location. Lots of extra mechanism that's not there in a Mini-14 or conventional AR.

    No question it has the "cool" looks but in function, there's lots of compromise that a video doesn''t show.
    The OP is trying to make a decision about a KelTec handgun, and he's looking for something more authoritative than what he heard in a gun store. That isn't helped by presenting opinion as though it were fact. I can speak to the RFB because I own one, have fired it, and found the rumors, about bull-pups and about the RFB, to be untrue. Hopefully the OP can separate fact from opinion and make an educated decision.

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