wylde007
Regular Member
Dang. Off by one measly code section!
:banghead:
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Is it necessary to reply to a LEO's request during a traffic stop?
- Thread starter MadMaxZ06
- Start date
:banghead:
Dang. Off by one measly code section!
The devil is in the details, even to the decimal point. :lol:
wylde007
Regular Member
Ask the guys who programmed the first Martian lander about that! :lol:
NightmareSHANIQUA
Regular Member
Negative ghostrider.
You can pull CHPs from plates. I was very shocked when one came off the plates of a busted Honda with a questionable occupant.
cb5300
Regular Member
Are you sure about this??? I have a friend who is a Roanoke Co. LEO and he showed me how when he ran my licence plate it popped up that I have a CHP....
Repeater
Regular Member
Not Queer. By design.
Lying to a Special Agent of the FBI who is investigating YOU is a crime. Because they're special.
Lying to a Virginia LEO who is investigating YOU is not.
See here:
HB 369 (2002)
Now, Delegate Cosgrove wanted to make it a crime, but the Conference Committee decided not to go that far.
Of course, this code section bears watching, because certain Law & Order types stilll want to make it a crime. See here.
Lying to a Special Agent of the FBI who is investigating YOU is a crime. Because they're special.
Lying to a Virginia LEO who is investigating YOU is not.
See here:
HB 369 (2002)
Now, Delegate Cosgrove wanted to make it a crime, but the Conference Committee decided not to go that far.
Of course, this code section bears watching, because certain Law & Order types stilll want to make it a crime. See here.
ProShooter
Regular Member
Well, I suppose that they could have updated the technology since I last looked, its been a few years!
Last time I ever saw one run on the MDT, you had to run the tag first, then the DL of the RO, and then it showed up. I'll have to get a buddy to swing by and run mine. I'll be impressed if they updated that!
TFred
Regular Member
ProShooter
Regular Member
Be careful! What if you show up "wanted!"
TFred
No worries there, nobody wants me.
Just ask my wife!
Wow, great thread. Thanks.
I know it's easier to just comply with the LEO's request. But damn if it doesn't burn me that it's even being asked.
I know the "officer safety" argument, but his safety shouldn't allow him to ask things (and the law shouldn't require me to truthfully reply) that aren't germane. I don't understand how my making an improper left-turn has ANYTHING to do with whether I'm carrying!!! Again, I just don't think the officer safety argument much applies in this instance but maybe I'm bias LOL
- Max
I know it's easier to just comply with the LEO's request. But damn if it doesn't burn me that it's even being asked.
I know the "officer safety" argument, but his safety shouldn't allow him to ask things (and the law shouldn't require me to truthfully reply) that aren't germane. I don't understand how my making an improper left-turn has ANYTHING to do with whether I'm carrying!!! Again, I just don't think the officer safety argument much applies in this instance but maybe I'm bias
LOL- Max
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wylde007
Regular Member
I do not recognize the authority of the FBI as existing lawfully under the Constitution.
I'm not aware of any law stating it's illegal to lie to a LEO in VA. I recall an officer charging someone with an administrative code hinting to that effect a few weeks ago, but it was ultimately nolle prossed by the Commonwealth Attorney. I don't recall the code and was told it is almost unenforceable.
However, it is illegal to lie to a LEO about your personal information if you do it in a way to avoid an arrest (VA code 18.2-186.3). That is a common charge and is a class 1 misdemeanor.
ProShooter
Regular Member
Wow, great thread. Thanks.
I know it's easier to just comply with the LEO's request. But damn if it doesn't burn me that it's even being asked.
I know the "officer safety" argument, but his safety shouldn't allow him to ask things (and the law shouldn't require me to truthfully reply) that aren't germane. I don't understand how my making an improper left-turn has ANYTHING to do with whether I'm carrying!!! Again, I just don't think the officer safety argument much applies in this instance but maybe I'm bias
- Max
Well, the officer safety issue (and your safety too) is always a concern.
Here's an example:
You are the officer. You observe someone making a simple illegal turn and you effect a traffic stop. The citizen who you stopped is normally a law abiding person. 2 weeks before, that citizen bounced a check at his local dry cleaners and the dry cleaner went and obtained a warrant for a bad check charge, unbeknowst to the citizen.
You run their info, and the warrant pops up. Now, you have to go and arrest the person. You tell the citizen that there is an outstanding warrant for his arrest and you have to take him in. He starts screaming and yelling about that damn dry cleaner.
Don't you as the officer want to know if there's a gun here somewhere, and don't you want to secure that gun before things get ugly? Its a simple matter of putting yourself in the other person's shoes. The fact is that the vast majority of officers appreciate when someone tells them about the gun ahead of time, and they quite often repay that by issuing a warning on a traffic stop, rather than an admission ticket to the General District Court.
What I always tell my students is that just like you, the officer just wants to go home at the end of the day to see his family. If you make the gun a big issue, it becomes the focus of the stop, not the traffic infraction. The other thing I tell people is this: Virginia doesnt require you to notify an officer that you are carrying. Your Virginia permit is valid in 28 other states, and some of those states DO require you to immediately tell the officer that you have a firearm and/or the law orders you to relinquish your firearm to the officer. Everything that we do physically with a gun is based on muscle memory, i.e. doing things the same way each time until it becomes second nature. Your interaction with LE should be handled the same way, and in a manner that covers you no matter what state you happen to be in.
All American Nightmare
Regular Member
What would the charge be for failing to provide name and address to a LEO?
I was under the impression that you only had to produce your chp and id on demand if you were cc. Did I read your post wrong?
There is no charge for not providing information (5th Amendment, you can always remain silent). However, if you are being charged with a crime, not providing your personal information will result in a trip to jail (magistrates office) because you cannot be released on a summons (most misdemeanors or traffic offense). VA law (like most states) requires you to produce a driver's license if operating an automobile and to hand over the CHP upon request.
Usually if someone remains silent and refuses to speak, most officers will take a photo of them in cases where they are suspected of committing a crime but not enough to charge.
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FYI- If you are stopped and you attempt to remain in your vehicle when told to step out by a LEO, that is a violation of law (obstruction 18.2-460). Powers given in PA v Mimms and I have seen people get ripped out of cars and found guilty for exactly what was mentioned above (during traffic stops for traffic offenses). Also, a LEO can order passengers out of a vehicle as well (MD v Wilson).
ProShooter-
When a LEO runs your vehicle tag in VA for a VA tag, it returns with the vehicle's information along with the registered owner's driver's license number. Most computers will then automatically run that driver's license number and return with the detailed information for the owner. That information includes name, d.o.b, address, social, driving record, height/weight, eyes/hair, and if the license is valid. It does not provide race or ethnicity.
Also, a separate box will pop up with a warning tone stating you have a CHP (if you do) or if you are wanted/missing person/sex offender/gang member. I always thought it was weird to have a warning tone as if someone was wanted if they legally have a CHP (thus confirming they have a clean criminal history).
On a side note, when you run an out of state tag, the return comes back formatted for that state. Some states provide a lot of detailed information, while others don't. I can recall some states indicating the person has a CCW/CHP, but I can't recall those states.
When a LEO runs your vehicle tag in VA for a VA tag, it returns with the vehicle's information along with the registered owner's driver's license number. Most computers will then automatically run that driver's license number and return with the detailed information for the owner. That information includes name, d.o.b, address, social, driving record, height/weight, eyes/hair, and if the license is valid. It does not provide race or ethnicity.
Also, a separate box will pop up with a warning tone stating you have a CHP (if you do) or if you are wanted/missing person/sex offender/gang member. I always thought it was weird to have a warning tone as if someone was wanted if they legally have a CHP (thus confirming they have a clean criminal history).
On a side note, when you run an out of state tag, the return comes back formatted for that state. Some states provide a lot of detailed information, while others don't. I can recall some states indicating the person has a CCW/CHP, but I can't recall those states.
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All American Nightmare
Regular Member
I once heard a LEO say If you flex your rights expect to be arrested for it. now thats pretty damm sad in my eyes. Leos can ask anything they want just as you can ask a leo anything you want. There is no law that makes you answer the question. If you feel the question has no bearing on the matter answer with a question. Which way were you heading? The same way you were office. The only power they have is threat of arrest to get the answers they want. If that fear is not a factor to you then they have no edge.Wow, great thread. Thanks.
I know it's easier to just comply with the LEO's request. But damn if it doesn't burn me that it's even being asked.
I know the "officer safety" argument, but his safety shouldn't allow him to ask things (and the law shouldn't require me to truthfully reply) that aren't germane. I don't understand how my making an improper left-turn has ANYTHING to do with whether I'm carrying!!! Again, I just don't think the officer safety argument much applies in this instance but maybe I'm bias
- Max
The officer saftey arguement has everything to with a traffic stop. I might be wrong on this but I belive a leo can do a limited search (wingspan) of the car under officer safety as well as taking the gun. While I do not have a great understanding of the law that some do on this site. I have a very good understanding of the practical application of the law through many bad encounters with leos do to the fact that I will not bow down on command.
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nuc65
Activist Member
The lander was more about a completely different system, more like criminal versus civil... or two different countries.
user
Accomplished Advocate
It doesn't have to be lawful (and you're right, the police power has been delegated exclusively to the states) under the Constitution, because they've got the power. And you may recall what Chairman Mao said, "power is a flower that blossoms from the muzzle of a gun." Their guns are bigger, and they'll come in at 2 am and shoot your dog. Remember Waco, remember Ruby Ridge. Oh, and by the way, there's a Virginia statute that says that FBI agents are "law enforcement officers" in Virginia.