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Thread: Is the "Virginia Tuck" OC or CC?

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    Regular Member macfly's Avatar
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    Is the "Virginia Tuck" OC or CC?

    Hey all, I was talking to some guys who work at the local gun shop about what is and isnt considered OC. I was surprised to hear the response that it is NOT considered OC if you have a IWB holster but have the butt of the gun showing out in front of a tucked in shirt. I thought that was the whole point of the 'virginia tuck'?!
    Is this actually considered concealed? yes the barrel is in the waist but if the but is sticking up and is clearly visible isnt that showing that you are not hiding it?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    Hey all, I was talking to some guys who work at the local gun shop about what is and isnt considered OC. I was surprised to hear the response that it is NOT considered OC if you have a IWB holster but have the butt of the gun showing out in front of a tucked in shirt. I thought that was the whole point of the 'virginia tuck'?!
    Is this actually considered concealed? yes the barrel is in the waist but if the but is sticking up and is clearly visible isnt that showing that you are not hiding it?
    OC
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    If you can tell it's a gun, then by literal definition, it's Open Carry. See the CHP code.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation...

    For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    TFred

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    Regular Member macfly's Avatar
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    Thats what I thought but every worker at the store insisted it was CC because 'the whole gun/holster has to be visible.'
    good to know. I have a Tucker Silent Thunder holster that I really love and would love to use this as my daily OC holster.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    More incorrect info from a gun shop. I carry with an IWB either a Supertuck, MTAC or a Tucker The Answer all the time. I think the VA law say "discernable" I'd say the butt of a gun sticking out of your pants meets that definition.

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    There is no need to advertise that you have a gun!!

    When the average joe looks at you they do not need to be able to "see" the gun, but it cannot be hidden.

    When the average joe looks where your gun is carried they should be able to see immediately that it is a gun.

    There is a difference between looking and seeing, just like listening and hearing. Most of us look without seeing and listen without hearing.

    I carry that way almost every day, but with a CHP. 95% of average joes never notice the gun, but no average joe would mistake it for anything BUT a gun if they see it.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    More incorrect info from a gun shop. I carry with an IWB either a Supertuck, MTAC or a Tucker The Answer all the time. I think the VA law say "discernable" I'd say the butt of a gun sticking out of your pants meets that definition.
    See the link in my earlier post... no instance of "discernible" in the code.

    TFred

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    More incorrect info from a gun shop. I carry with an IWB either a Supertuck, MTAC or a Tucker The Answer all the time. I think the VA law say "discernable" I'd say the butt of a gun sticking out of your pants meets that definition.
    I can't find the article.. but there WAS a guy arrested (and prosecuted?) for carrying "concealed" while wearing a belt buckle similar to this:
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    Thats what I thought but every worker at the store insisted it was CC because 'the whole gun/holster has to be visible.'
    good to know. I have a Tucker Silent Thunder holster that I really love and would love to use this as my daily OC holster.
    It is a well known fact among gun culture people that those who work in gun stores/shops are not necessarily well versed in the law, in tactics, in ammunition performance, and in a host of other things related to firearms. This by no means is to say all of them fall into this mold... quite the contrary. There most certainly are some very apt and informed people who do work in gun shops. But enough ill-informed people do work in these places that do give customers who are not educated in these areas erroneous information because they haven't a clue about that which they speak. And these are the ones who will try their damnedest to come across as all knowing and wise, probably to puff up their own egos at the expense of dispensing garbage. The problem then becomes trying to find gun shops/stores with quality employees who know their craft AND are not opposed to saying, "I don't know" when they don't.

    Please do note that I said that, "This by no means is to say all of them fall into this mold". I just wanted to reiterate this fact.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 11-23-2010 at 08:42 AM.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    I can't find the article.. but there WAS a guy arrested (and prosecuted?) for carrying "concealed" while wearing a belt buckle similar to this:
    That's a different situation Ed. The court said it was disguised to look like a belt buckle.


    Don't get legal advice from the Police, Gun shop employees, Service Station Attendants or McDonalds Employees.

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    See the link in my earlier post... no instance of "discernible" in the code.

    TFred
    How about common observation?


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    Yeah, if you ever get arrested, make sure you ask those guys in the gun shop to represent you at trial.

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    I'm surprised they didn't also tell you that it had to be visible from three sides.

    Two kinds of folks I never ask about gun laws... guns shop employees, and cops. Granted, there are those in the know, but as a class they are not a great resource.
    Last edited by zoom6zoom; 11-23-2010 at 12:22 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoom6zoom View Post
    I'm surprised they didn't also tell you that it had to be visible from three sides.

    Two kinds of folks I never ask about gun laws... guns shop employees, and cops. Granted, there are those in the know, but as a class they are not a great resource.
    I think you'll find that a lot of gun shop employees get their information from cops who hang around and talk shop. The blind leading the blind.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Would be very interested to know what gun shop exactly - not to give them any grief, but to allow the opportunity to educate them properly and with support data/cites.

    This way we might turn a poor information source into a positive one.
    This is an area in which we should shine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Nice! A chromed NAA whth beautiful grips! Where can I find one?
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    Regular Member macfly's Avatar
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    The store in question was Loudoun Guns in Leesburg. They were pretty nice and helpful with everything else but this question got me confused because they were pretty insistent that IWB would be considered concealed carry or at best questionable by cops.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    they were pretty insistent that IWB would be considered concealed carry or at best questionable by cops.
    As a gun store that probably sells thousands of holsters, their answer doesn't surprise me. That is because IWB was originally designed and intended as a concealment holster. Some say that tucking the shirt behind the grip and exposing the grip means that it is no longer concealed. We've been down this road before arguing about it. Some IWB holsters sit lower in the pants than others and it may be easier to see the gun in some holsters.

    I say that if you need/want to OC, do it in a holster that avoids any grey area.
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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Postcard Sent

    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    The store in question was Loudoun Guns in Leesburg. They were pretty nice and helpful with everything else but this question got me confused because they were pretty insistent that IWB would be considered concealed carry or at best questionable by cops.
    I too am a customer of Loudoun Guns, so I sent them a postcard.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member macfly's Avatar
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    Ha! great. guess I will be getting an earful if i step back in there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    Hey all, I was talking to some guys who work at the local gun shop about what is and isnt considered OC. I was surprised to hear the response that it is NOT considered OC if you have a IWB holster but have the butt of the gun showing out in front of a tucked in shirt. I thought that was the whole point of the 'virginia tuck'?!
    Is this actually considered concealed? yes the barrel is in the waist but if the but is sticking up and is clearly visible isnt that showing that you are not hiding it?
    Well, considering you got the information from the guys at the local gunshop, I'm not surprised you got BAD information.

    If the gun is NOT hidden from common observation (i.e. IWB with the grip sticking out), and can be ID'd as a gun...it's Open Carrying.

    I carried into restaurants and in public via the "VA tuck"....it is NOT concealed.

    Next time, confuse the gun store lawyers and ask them how OC is defined in the VA code
    (hint: none exists...but ask them to look it up anyway)

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    Ha! great. guess I will be getting an earful if i step back in there...
    I would guess not.. I signed my name and they could contact me directly.. They might even know me.. I shop there, I just don't ask them gun law questions. I would imagine that they are set in their grove and spew the same lines to everyone that comes on.. so until someone derails wrong information they will continue with it. So it wont be.. "Ahh that macfly guy is the one that "told" on us.." it will be like.. (I hope) wow.. we have told hundreds and hundreds of customers wrong information and now we can correct one piece of our shpeel.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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    Regular Member macfly's Avatar
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    yeah, i was just joking. its better for them to know. there were a few moments about questions i asked that made me just look with blank stare because the answer was obviously wrong. but hey, they are just people too.
    IMHO its better to just admit you arent sure of something than to come across like there is no way you are wrong.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macfly View Post
    yeah, i was just joking. its better for them to know. there were a few moments about questions i asked that made me just look with blank stare because the answer was obviously wrong. but hey, they are just people too.
    IMHO its better to just admit you arent sure of something than to come across like there is no way you are wrong.
    Everybody needs some help/education sometimes. Those whose daily routines involve constant association with any particular tool/element, soon fall into the belief that they are experts in dispensing knowledge, but faulty information repeated often enough..........is still faulty.

    Whether they are LEOs, gun shop employees, or posters here like myself, all make mistakes - to the point that bad info is passed on to others occasionally. That is part of the reason why we are collectively so good at what we do - research, education, getting our facts straight. I am reminded of the old cliche, "I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken."

    Dispensing education/knowledge should not be a personal affront and is best done with a smile, a friendly gesture, to let the listener know that you are not attacking them. You are doing them (and us) a valuable service.

    We all do carry VCDL information cards (the current blue ones) with us at all times, right?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    We all do carry VCDL information cards (the current blue ones) with us at all times, right?
    Too big for my liking, so I made my own OC cards on regular business card size... also available free for the asking.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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