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Question about getting drawn on by police

Aaron1124

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
2,044
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
I was reading another thread on here, and it got me thinking. What if you're out on your day, minding your own business, when suddenly a man approaches you, draws a weapon, and tells you to get down, while yelling "POLICE!"?

Question: How do you know he's REALLY the police, and not some nutjob posing as one? Laws on impersonating a police officer do not stop people from impersonating police officers. There are many circumstances where officers truly have a case of mistaken identity, and may think you're a wanted suspect, when you're just Joe Blow out minding your own business.

What would generally come out of a situation like this? It seems like it's almost a lose/lose situation for yourself.

In Scenario 1, You can either trust that it's an officer, and obey his commands, and hope that you're right, and that you will eventually be on your way after everything is cleared up.

In Scenario 2, You choose not to trust that he's a police officer, and you do not obey his commands, because you have done nothing illegal. You take action and quickly draw and fire on him, killing him. It turns out that it was a police officer who misidentified you for someone else, and now you're in some hot water.

In Scenario 3, You choose not to trust that he's a police officer, and you do not obey his commands, because you have done nothing illegal. You take action and quickly draw and fire on him, killing him. It turns out that you were RIGHT, and it was not a police officer, and you have just used justifiable force (depending on state statutes)

In Scenario 4, You could simply end up shot yourself if you go to grab for your firearm, regardless if it's a police officer or a thug.
 

zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
way too many what ifs for me to really answer this question. Simply let me see a badge and go from there.
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
way too many what ifs for me to really answer this question. Simply let me see a badge and go from there.
Marked cruiser and traditional uniform, at a minimum.

Some guy in street clothes flashing what looks like a badge, if he's not accompanied by other symbols of office, will be treated like any other guy pointing a gun at me.
 

Nevada carrier

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
1,293
Location
The Epicenter of Freedom
What are thee odds that you're going to run into someone impersonating an officer while you are out an d about doing your daily business? My guess is you are most likely to encounter one of these nut jobs in a place where he knows for certain he will find YOU.

The bottom line is this, police officer, criminal or criminal impersonating a police officer, we as law abiding folk will always be behind the curve when it comes to reaction to a threat of deadly force. Just a guess, but In 99.999% of all instances where someone identifies themselves as a LEO, they will be just that. It's easy to imagine these no-win scenarios, but they are probably so rare that you shouldn't really even concern yourself with them.

The closest thing I've seen to this kind of situation was when someone at a Reno, Nevada Wal~Mart was confronted by a process server and led them to believe they where in some way affiliated with a law enforcement agency by virtue of the official sounding name, "Nevada Court Services." He had some symbolic badge that meant nothing and quoted ordinances that were many years outdated and abolished by state preemption claiming that he would place him under arrest for openly carrying a firearm. In the end the customer he confronted simply laughed and told him to go fly a kite, then proceeded to make a fool out of him on this site resulting in great embarrassment for Mr wanna-be-cop.

Then again, scenarios like this are why, though we advocate open carry, we should all be concealed carriers as well, and have a BUG. if they are law enforcement, they will find it, if they are not law enforcement, they probably wont. so after they get what they want from you, you still have the means to defend yourself, if they take your visible firearm, I would surmise that their intent is to do something that would result in grave harm to you or someone else and lethal force would then be justified. Just wait for an opportunity where drawing and firing your BUG is feasible and as safe for you and the public as possible. I'm of the opinion that if someone steals a firearm from you, you could legally fire on them with your BUG and it would be justifiable, even if you shut them in the back. After all, we have the right to defend others from grave bodily harm with lethal force, nothing says we have to know who that person is before we do. IANAL though, so what I would do may not be what you should do.
 
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PT111

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
2,243
Location
, South Carolina, USA
I was reading another thread on here, and it got me thinking. What if you're out on your day, minding your own business, when suddenly a man approaches you, draws a weapon, and tells you to get down, while yelling "POLICE!"?

Question: How do you know he's REALLY the police, and not some nutjob posing as one? Laws on impersonating a police officer do not stop people from impersonating police officers. There are many circumstances where officers truly have a case of mistaken identity, and may think you're a wanted suspect, when you're just Joe Blow out minding your own business.

What would generally come out of a situation like this? It seems like it's almost a lose/lose situation for yourself.

In Scenario 1, You can either trust that it's an officer, and obey his commands, and hope that you're right, and that you will eventually be on your way after everything is cleared up.

In Scenario 2, You choose not to trust that he's a police officer, and you do not obey his commands, because you have done nothing illegal. You take action and quickly draw and fire on him, killing him. It turns out that it was a police officer who misidentified you for someone else, and now you're in some hot water.

Much more likely that when you try to draw your gun he shoots and kills you and then you don't have to worry about hot "water".

In Scenario 3, You choose not to trust that he's a police officer, and you do not obey his commands, because you have done nothing illegal. You take action and quickly draw and fire on him, killing him. It turns out that you were RIGHT, and it was not a police officer, and you have just used justifiable force (depending on state statutes)

See Scenarion 2.

In Scenario 4, You could simply end up shot yourself if you go to grab for your firearm, regardless if it's a police officer or a thug.

Good chance that not only would you be shot but also dead.

If someone it yelling police at me and holding a gun I am not going to imagine that I am Dirty Harry and think I am fast enough to shoot him before he can pull the trigger. I am going to obey his every command. Regardless of what else the fellow at the LV Costco would be alive now if he had not tried to outhink the police.
 

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
I took it he meant 99.999%.

That being said, 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

But 76.801% of the ones made up on the spot are up to 10% more accurate than those from 91% of studies.
 

truecrimson

New member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
6
Location
Leb-A-non, PA
My very first "LEO encounter" as an OCer back in July of 2008 was with a person who claimed to be an Philadelphia police officer. He did not pull a gun on me, but did threaten me with arrest and claimed I was on federal property. Being unsure of my position regarding the location I removed my gun and placed it in my car.

It was only later, when I got home and began attempting to file a complaint, that I discovered that he was not an officer, and the place where I encountered him was state property, not federal. Philly PD didn't seem to care but the Fish and Boat Commission is looking out for the guy. It was their ground he was impersonating on and they were not happy about it.

There is a thread about it somewhere on PAFOA, but I'm at work and PAFOA is blocked. Anyway, impersonating an officer can and does happen.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Question: How do you know he's REALLY the police, and not some nutjob posing as one?

He may be a nutjob, and may not be an officer, but if he hasn't already fired, chances are good he won't, which gives you some time to deal with the situation.

I'd probably say, "I'd like to see your ID, first." If he's actually a police officer, he may or may not comply, but chances are exceedingly good he won't shoot you simply for asking. If he does show his ID, I'd rest easy and comply with any lawful demands.

If he refused to show his ID, I'd probably say, "I don't believe you're a cop. Show me your badge, or I'll not comply with your demands." It's dicey, yes, but I'm not about to turn my firearm over to someone who's not law enforcement.

If he admitted to not being a cop, I'd ask him to lower his firearm. I'm an honest, law-abiding citizen, and no one other than law enforcement has any right to draw a weapon on me. If he refused, I'd quick-draw and shoot him. Along with a side-stepping maneuver, I could probably stop him without too much damage to myself.

If he persisted in claiming he was a cop while refusing to show me his ID, I'm not sure what I'd do. Much would depend upon his demeanor. Not only does it take a particular type of person to join law enforcement, but those character traits are strengthened by training. There's simply an air about most law enforcement officers that's different than that of the general public.

There are many circumstances where officers truly have a case of mistaken identity, and may think you're a wanted suspect, when you're just Joe Blow out minding your own business.

That's why if he kept claiming he was a police officer while refusing to show his ID, I wouldn't just blow him away.
 

OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
907
Location
Oklahoma
While I am not sure about most states, the two that I am most familiar with require a LEO to properly ID themselves when requested. Just flashing a badge is not legal ID. Badges are easy to buy.
 

JamesB

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
703
Location
Lakewood, Colorado, USA
What do you do?

You do what ever the man pointing a gun at you tells you to do!!

If he already has the drop, I'm not going to go for a gun period!
After he puts it away, we can discuss things rationally.

If he is a cop, if he is a crook, if he is another citizen...regardless.
If he is pointing a gun at me and mine is still in the holster, he is the one in charge.
 

emsjeep

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
210
Location
NY-CT
What do you do?

You do what ever the man pointing a gun at you tells you to do!!

If he already has the drop, I'm not going to go for a gun period!
After he puts it away, we can discuss things rationally.

If he is a cop, if he is a crook, if he is another citizen...regardless.
If he is pointing a gun at me and mine is still in the holster, he is the one in charge.


Tru dat.

But really, exactly what I was going to say. If they were going to kill you for the sake of killing you, they would have just shot you, complying, to a point, is probably the only viable option when staring at a gun, don't give them reason to pull the trigger by attempting a futile draw.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
I was reading another thread on here, and it got me thinking. What if you're out on your day, minding your own business, when suddenly a man approaches you, draws a weapon, and tells you to get down, while yelling "POLICE!"?

Question: How do you know he's REALLY the police, and not some nutjob posing as one? Laws on impersonating a police officer do not stop people from impersonating police officers. There are many circumstances where officers truly have a case of mistaken identity, and may think you're a wanted suspect, when you're just Joe Blow out minding your own business.

What would generally come out of a situation like this? It seems like it's almost a lose/lose situation for yourself.

In Scenario 1, You can either trust that it's an officer, and obey his commands, and hope that you're right, and that you will eventually be on your way after everything is cleared up.

In Scenario 2, You choose not to trust that he's a police officer, and you do not obey his commands, because you have done nothing illegal. You take action and quickly draw and fire on him, killing him. It turns out that it was a police officer who misidentified you for someone else, and now you're in some hot water.

In Scenario 3, You choose not to trust that he's a police officer, and you do not obey his commands, because you have done nothing illegal. You take action and quickly draw and fire on him, killing him. It turns out that you were RIGHT, and it was not a police officer, and you have just used justifiable force (depending on state statutes)

In Scenario 4, You could simply end up shot yourself if you go to grab for your firearm, regardless if it's a police officer or a thug.

In Scenario 5, you obey his commands, to discover it's a criminal, and he takes your gun and shoots you in the back.

In Scenario 6, the cop Ian Birks you five times before you've had a chance to react.



As you can see, once we take on the responsibility of OC, police become a bigger threat than criminals. And they wonder when I'm 10x more afraid of them then some random street thug.
 
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eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
What do you do?

You do what ever the man pointing a gun at you tells you to do!!

If he already has the drop, I'm not going to go for a gun period!
After he puts it away, we can discuss things rationally.

If he is a cop, if he is a crook, if he is another citizen...regardless.
If he is pointing a gun at me and mine is still in the holster, he is the one in charge.

Uncomplicated, but cogent, analysis.
 
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protect our rights

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
290
Location
Fort Wayne, Indiana
As you can see, once we take on the responsibility of OC, police become a bigger threat than criminals. And they wonder when I'm 10x more afraid of them then some random street thug.
Well nowadays, who is really the thugs? I mean now that cops doing drive-by shootings out of unmarked black SUVs (POLICE DRIVE-BY)... really the line is muddled now.
 
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