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Thread: VIDEO: Two 'e' Checks In 2 Minutes Spanning 2 Agencies.

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    VIDEO: Two 'e' Checks In 2 Minutes Spanning 2 Agencies.

    Because PC12031 is written vaguely I often wondered if one could be detained indefinitely under it's exemptions and 'authority' given to LEOs.

    Example 1: "The Infinite Loop". Take a group of LEOs (6 or so) tasked with keeping the peace at an event. To discourage an OCer from attending or in hopes of being able to have probable cause for arrest they take turns 'e' checking the OCer in a loop until he/she slips up. Each officer checks the OCer, steps aside to give way for a partner to check. Each officer can claim the "authority" under the exemption to check. After all, that second, third, etc. officer hasn't checked the loaded condition. By the time you come around to the 1st officer he/she could claim that the loaded condition could have changes since they last met.

    Example 2: "The Pestering Pete". Take one officer with an agenda. To discourage open carry or in the hopes of making an arrest pursuant to PC12031 the officer 'e' checks the OCer. Then the officer glances away or turns away long enough for a reasonable person to load their weapon. Provided the officer did not have clear sight of the person or firearm during that time, one could argue (in court) that the loaded condition could not be attested to.

    With that being the case, the officer again has the "authority" to 'e' check. Lather-rise-repeat.


    I know some departments have accepted a once a day check or once per officer you come across. Others, once a year. How often is too often. If you ask me, once ever is too often.

    I submit for your approval my double 'e' check. Direct download (HD) or YouTube

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    One more thing... I do consider the first stop a 12031 (e) stop. If not for the Penal Code they'd have grounds to detain me.

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    Regular Member JJ's Avatar
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    Great Job DJ, keep up the good work!

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    I can't believe they didthis.

    BadAce, *knowing that SJPD was on its way, I almost think that it would be better to get the e check over with the "nice" sheriffs . Their is no way in hell you should be subject to a second detainment within 2 minutes. No judge is going to look kindly on this video, and this looks like a total setup to jerk you around between the two agencies. The sheriiffs' should have notified San Jose you were not any threat. What a stroke job, they have radios that work at the speed of sound and have the ability to radio either other within two minutes(it was 70 seconds between the two detainments). For a guy that wants to invoke your right to remain silent....you sure have a lot to say.
    Last edited by oc4ever; 11-23-2010 at 11:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oc4ever View Post
    For a guy that wants to invoke your right to remain silent....you sure have a lot to say.
    Listen to him again, he retained his right to remain silent, which means he can stop talking anytime he feels the need with no legal eagle catch-22.

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    This looks like a fairly good encounter to me,

    In spite of the general adversarial nature, you weren't on the ground, cuffed or otherwise molested. Despite what many others think about these "stops", I don't see them as a bad thing right now. You are meeting and communicating with your law enforcement department, and under the general circumstances, things went well. It didn't sound to me like the cops you met had it in for you or us in general. There was a little uneasyness, but with all that iron in the mix, that's to be expected.

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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Its clear to me that SJPD has way too much funding if they are able to send 3 cars out to a call that has already been handled by the deputies...

    Well, I'm not from San Jose, so maybe it is a utopia of crime-free living up there and I'm just out of the loop, so the best thing they have to do with their time is harass lawful citizens.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oc4ever View Post
    ...they have radios that work at the speed of sound...
    Speed of light. Radiowaves are just a form of light, so it naturally travels at the speed of light.

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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    Speed of light. Radiowaves are just a form of light, so it naturally travels at the speed of light.
    While its off topic, technically its a combo of both. Once the radio waves reach the radio, its speed of sound from the speaker. :P

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Continuing off topic.
    Radio wave is the carrier. The carrier is modulated at an audio frequency. The reciever strips off the audo and it is amplified and played out the speaker.

    The speed of sound varies depending on air temp, and air density (moisture in the air)
    The speed of radio waves is the same as light.
    Last edited by Gundude; 11-24-2010 at 01:31 AM.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member XDSTEEL's Avatar
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    sorry

    Kinda related to the topic but has anyone actually challenged the PC12031? I mean it is an illegal search basically so why not take it to court federal or State level. I mean it may be expensive but there are plenty of OC groups in CA to raise some monies together? I don't know just curious
    Patrick Henry didn't say "Give me safety , or give me death". Liberty is what America is about.

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    lets see who laughs last

    Speed of light or speed of sound out the speaker. Either way we are talking milliseconds. Radio waves traveling 100 yards between the two police agencies cars, doesn't make a hoot of difference, even if they go through a repeater system. I am sure the deputies thought it was real funny that BadAce got detained again within 70 seconds by SJPD. They had to be watching and laughing. Bet their bosses are not going to think it is such a funny little joke if they start getting FOIA/ legal papers served on them.

    BadAce , you did a great job, but your dog's attorney was pissed you gave his name up. He did not submit to the detention willingly as you used a degree of force by holding his leash. Don't be surprised if he pee's on you for violation of his rights!!

    Tell the LEO next time the dog also does not wish to submit to any searches or dog tag ID checks(they could find out who you are from the info). I think you can legally tape over the dog tag number and still show the expiration date of the tag.

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    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oc4ever View Post
    Speed of light or speed of sound out the speaker. Either way we are talking milliseconds. Radio waves traveling 100 yards between the two police agencies cars, doesn't make a hoot of difference, even if they go through a repeater system. I am sure the deputies thought it was real funny that BadAce got detained again within 70 seconds by SJPD. They had to be watching and laughing. Bet their bosses are not going to think it is such a funny little joke if they start getting FOIA/ legal papers served on them.

    BadAce , you did a great job, but your dog's attorney was pissed you gave his name up. He did not submit to the detention willingly as you used a degree of force by holding his leash. Don't be surprised if he pee's on you for violation of his rights!!

    Tell the LEO next time the dog also does not wish to submit to any searches or dog tag ID checks(they could find out who you are from the info). I think you can legally tape over the dog tag number and still show the expiration date of the tag.
    I'm planning on having my dogs carry concealed weapons.

    They will be concealed in little plastic baggies tied to their harnesses.

    I welcome LEOs doing a complete search and DEEP inspection of these baggies for any illegally possessed weapons.

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    the speed of sound is 340.29 m/s while most bullets travel about 300m/sec. take for example, the 9mm. it has a velocity of 1125 ft/sec or 342.9 m/sec at muzzle. this bullet actually traveling faster than sound for a bit but drops off to 975 ft/sec or 297.18m/sec at about 100 meters.

    the speed of the radio wave is 29900000 m/sec. this is much faster than 340.29 m/sec.

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    its been too long since ive OCed. That video gave me some butterflies like the first few times i was stopped. Way to handle it!
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army View Post
    Listen to him again, he retained his right to remain silent, which means he can stop talking anytime he feels the need with no legal eagle catch-22.
    Thanks for noticing. Retaining or reserving the right to remain silent means that I can speak when I choose but "interrogations" on their part to gain info are over.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtykoala View Post
    its been too long since ive OCed. That video gave me some butterflies like the first few times i was stopped. Way to handle it!
    DirtyKoala,

    You have been the inspiration to many. I've been carrying in my neighborhood and on these walks with the dog every day since AB1934 was proposed (and subsequently shut down). The way would not have been as paved if it wasn't for folks like you carrying in the face of adversity early on.

    Unlike you I haven't been drawn on I consider myself lucky with the brevity and professionalism exude by the LEOs in my area. I hope the LEOs in your area can follow suite.

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    Speed of light. Radiowaves are just a form of light, so it naturally travels at the speed of light.
    I think its the other way around, light is just a specific frequency band on the electromagnetic spectrum. Sorry couldn't resist.

    ETA: Wow, when I posted I had no idea how many had commented on this. :-)
    Last edited by coolusername2007; 11-24-2010 at 06:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    Its clear to me that SJPD has way too much funding if they are able to send 3 cars out to a call that has already been handled by the deputies...

    Well, I'm not from San Jose, so maybe it is a utopia of crime-free living up there and I'm just out of the loop, so the best thing they have to do with their time is harass lawful citizens.
    It almost is...

    http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-...397?source=rss
    Last edited by SouthBayr; 11-24-2010 at 06:05 PM.

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    That is really sad, and doubly unconstitutional. Did he really have the authority to e-violate you once he knew you already talked to the other LEO's? Without a lawsuit we'll never know.

    But talk about the what if's? What if you had stayed just a little longer with the deputies. What if the deputies had actually performed the e-violation (I can see an activist judge saying no harm since your weapon was not inspected, even though you were "checked"). What if you had questioned the city cop's authority since you were just e-checked by the deputies.

    It would have been nice to see you challenge the city cop a little more like you did the deputies. But I guess others would argue it was a "good violation" since he finished in about 5 seconds.

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Light is the part of the spectrum that our eyes detect. Red, Green and blue. The presence of all 3 is white light. The absence of all 3 is black.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Another thing about 'lights" is why are the last 3 LEO cars flashing lights ?
    That's saying there's an 'Emergency " when there is none !
    Flashing lights is "Declaring an Emergency" !

    Its a sad state we are living in ! Robin47

  23. #23
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin47 View Post
    Another thing about 'lights" is why are the last 3 LEO cars flashing lights ?
    That's saying there's an 'Emergency " when there is none !
    Flashing lights is "Declaring an Emergency" !
    I noticed the lights also. But they're amber in color which denotes caution, not an emergency.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...hting#Lightbar

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    Regular Member CenTex's Avatar
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    Bad_Ace,
    You've got some nerve telling the second officer to not come closer. Who do you think you are? A citizen of the United States?

    I was surprised by his compliance to your request. There are some places in America that an officer would not have taken that. It says something about the officers where you live. Some of them, by these two encounters, reveal that there are still some decent POs who try to uphold the law while at the same time not infringing on your God-given rights.
    The words of a tyrant: “I never entertain opposing opinions. I am always right.”

    Socialism is just another dirty word for totalitarianism.

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." -Patrick Henry

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenTex View Post
    Bad_Ace,
    You've got some nerve telling the second officer to not come closer. Who do you think you are? A citizen of the United States?

    I was surprised by his compliance to your request.
    Thanks. He was about 6 inches from me, definitely inside my 'personal bubble'.

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