• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Does Security work give off a false vibe?

A

Aaron1124

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
2,044
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
Police work is needed to investigate crimes, find and apprehend suspects, among other purposes, and some security work seems vital - for example, if a body is needed to watch over a vacant area to ensure nothing is stolen while everyone is away, etc.

But do you feel that other "security" type of work gives other citizens that they don't need to take responsibility for their own safety and security? Or am I wrong in thinking this?

I use to work for a security contractor, and I was primarily posted at grocery stores for late shifts, to ensure the "safety" of the customers and employees. I'd always get complimented by random passer-by's, thanking me for being present, because it makes them feel better about their safety. While I appreciated it, I feel I may have been raised differently. I was always taught to be responsible for my own safety. If you're going to be feeling at potential risk by going grocery shopping at night, then why don't you carry protection, rather than hope that the on site security officer will be present to provide you with your safety?

If all of the store employees, and customers shopping were proactive, then there would be no need for security.

Does anyone else agree with this? Or am I alone?
 
Tomas

Tomas

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
702
Location
University Place, Washington, USA
I've been one of those folks who has thanked an obviously alert and attentive security person for being there - but that has never meant that I was unarmed. :lol:

Having the security person already aware of me - and hopefully having noticed my smile and nod - if something DOES go down we will watch each other's back if necessary.

Just 'cause I smile and nod, and maybe say something about glad to see 'em, doesn't mean I am not armed.

I'm just checking in. :D

(Too bad there is no really good way to let them know if I am CC...)
 
G

Gary599

Regular Member
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
20
Location
, New Hampshire, USA
I have been Doing security mostly 3rd shift since 1991.

Generally security allows for companies to have cheaper insurance. But for instance unarmed security at a mall does really what nothing.

Glorified baby sitter with no personal protection to protect yourself or anyone else.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
P

PT111

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
2,243
Location
, South Carolina, USA
Aaron1124 said:
Police work is needed to investigate crimes, find and apprehend suspects, among other purposes, and some security work seems vital - for example, if a body is needed to watch over a vacant area to ensure nothing is stolen while everyone is away, etc.

But do you feel that other "security" type of work gives other citizens that they don't need to take responsibility for their own safety and security? Or am I wrong in thinking this?

I use to work for a security contractor, and I was primarily posted at grocery stores for late shifts, to ensure the "safety" of the customers and employees. I'd always get complimented by random passer-by's, thanking me for being present, because it makes them feel better about their safety. While I appreciated it, I feel I may have been raised differently. I was always taught to be responsible for my own safety. If you're going to be feeling at potential risk by going grocery shopping at night, then why don't you carry protection, rather than hope that the on site security officer will be present to provide you with your safety?

If all of the store employees, and customers shopping were proactive, then there would be no need for security.

Does anyone else agree with this? Or am I alone?
Click to expand...

I don't think it gives them the felling that they don't need to tak responsibility, they have that already. The fact that there is a police force provides that for most people. Just like the solution for crime is certain neighborhoods is having police ride through more often eases the mind of many people whether or not it does any good. Everyone feels safer when they are not alone and having a security guard there does that even if they may already be armed. I would much rather face a robber with a backup than alone so to you comment about if everyone were proactive then there would be no need for security guards, maybe we could expand that and say no need for police or armies.

I thank a lot of people for their work. I always try to say thank you to those doing work that I would not want to do such as janitors and maids. Watch the show "Dirty Jobs" and tell me how many of those you would want to do. Someone has to do those jobs and I am glad that it is not me in most cases. When I see someone doing it I thank them for doing what I would not want to do instead of looking down on them such as the people of India actualy shuuning the "Untouchables".

As some say, the most important thing about any security plan is to have a backup.
 
Z

zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
I have done armed security for a few years now and the large majority of guards you have there have ZERO training on handling the majority of issue that can accouter. Much less they have only fired their gun only when they where qualifying for their OPOTA.
 
Last edited:
A

Aaron1124

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
2,044
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
zack991 said:
I have done armed security for a few years now and the large majority of guards you have there have ZERO training on handling the majority of issue that can accouter. Much less they have only fired their gun only when they where qualifying for their OPOTA.
Click to expand...

I have had more training in my personal life than I had working security. I had absolutely zero training for my security work. I had a six hour orientation, and then they gave me my uniform and said "Here ya go", along with a manual to study.
 
Z

zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
Aaron1124 said:
I have had more training in my personal life than I had working security. I had absolutely zero training for my security work. I had a six hour orientation, and then they gave me my uniform and said "Here ya go", along with a manual to study.
Click to expand...

Granted there's not much to it but so many new guys have no weapon experience and are a risk to more than just themselves.
 
Last edited:
skidmark

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Forget what armed security has or does not have in the way of training or equipment. Look at what the contract and post orders are.

For the most part they are "to observe and report" only. Contracting for armed (or unarmed) security to arrest - even for shoplifting, which seems to be the limit of the extent of their authority in many states - adds, rather than detracts, from the business's liability. Some places hire security to keep out folks who have previously been issued "no trespass" papers, but again trying to enforce that via the laying on of hands can expose both the security officer, his agency, and the business to great liability issues. Thus the kabuki theater of "security drama".

The difficult part is getting a peek at the actual contract. Sometimes you can get the security officer to show you the post orders - helps if you have a friendly relationship with them. Generally speaking, contracts and post orders are not considered public information.

So - does it give off a false vibe? Depends on how much you either know or imagine about the contract and post orders.

Now, if you really want to get me started let's talk about off-duty cops who are hired as security guards. Are they still cops? Are they security officers bound by a contract and post orders? Do they even know, let alone care, about the distinction?

stay safe.
 
A

Aaron1124

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
2,044
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
skidmark said:
Forget what armed security has or does not have in the way of training or equipment. Look at what the contract and post orders are.

For the most part they are "to observe and report" only. Contracting for armed (or unarmed) security to arrest - even for shoplifting, which seems to be the limit of the extent of their authority in many states - adds, rather than detracts, from the business's liability. Some places hire security to keep out folks who have previously been issued "no trespass" papers, but again trying to enforce that via the laying on of hands can expose both the security officer, his agency, and the business to great liability issues. Thus the kabuki theater of "security drama".

The difficult part is getting a peek at the actual contract. Sometimes you can get the security officer to show you the post orders - helps if you have a friendly relationship with them. Generally speaking, contracts and post orders are not considered public information.

So - does it give off a false vibe? Depends on how much you either know or imagine about the contract and post orders.

Now, if you really want to get me started let's talk about off-duty cops who are hired as security guards. Are they still cops? Are they security officers bound by a contract and post orders? Do they even know, let alone care, about the distinction?

stay safe.
Click to expand...

When I worked for the contractor, I had post orders on site. Note that my job was not to stop shoplifters. The store hired undercover loss prevention for that duty. My job was to remain posted outside of the store, and to provide as "a physical presence to deter potential crime" as described in my post orders. I was also ordered to "Only use force is there is physical violence being displayed." My job was primarily to ensure that people made it safely to and from the store, and to make sure that no one vandalized the vehicles or the exterior of the store property.

As far as off duty cops working as security, that will also depend on their contract. I know in Washington State, an off duty cop still has full police powers across the state, 24/7. Although, when they are employed as security, they have to follow the contract. So if the contract tells them they cannot be armed while on duty, they cannot be armed while on duty. They can by LAW (and quite frankly, they should be, because it may be a direct violation to their department policies), but it would also be in violation of their contract with the private business.
 
Sonora Rebel

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
If a sworn LEO is required by their LEA to be armed 24/7 (Normally IAW State/Municipal statute), a contractor may not legally disarm them. If they do disarm, they are in violation of Dept regs. If they are killed or injured in that sort of employ... they (or their family) may not recieve any benefits and they may be terminated from the LEA for cause. 'Course if they're dead, it won't matter (to them).
 
A

Aaron1124

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
2,044
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
Sonora Rebel said:
If a sworn LEO is required by their LEA to be armed 24/7 (Normally IAW State/Municipal statute), a contractor may not legally disarm them. If they do disarm, they are in violation of Dept regs. If they are killed or injured in that sort of employ... they (or their family) may not recieve any benefits and they may be terminated from the LEA for cause. 'Course if they're dead, it won't matter (to them).
Click to expand...

Which is why they conflict with them so many times. I also worked as a contractor for Walmart for a while, and the regulations at Walmart stated something along the lines of "No employee, or contracted employee for Walmart may have in his or her possession, at any time, while performing the duties of their employment, any firearm, ammunition, or other weapon deemed "dangerous" by Walmart's Loss Prevention unit. If you are a police officer that is required to be armed, then you may not provide security services for Walmart."

So, in others words, they wouldn't allow police officers to do their security work, because they would have to be armed. To me, that seems quite ridiculous. For liability reasons, you're not allowing a police officer to do your security work, because he has to be armed?
 
Sonora Rebel

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
That entire premise could be contested (Class Action Suite) against Wally World or any other. I don't shop Walmart much... maybe in the local one 3x in the past 5 years. Each visit tho was OC as usual. 'No problems. It would appear that they do not trust their employees to be armed.
 
K

Kirbinator

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
903
Location
Middle of the map, Alabama
Aaron1124 said:
Which is why they conflict with them so many times. I also worked as a contractor for Walmart for a while, and the regulations at Walmart stated something along the lines of "No employee, or contracted employee for Walmart may have in his or her possession, at any time, while performing the duties of their employment, any firearm, ammunition, or other weapon deemed "dangerous" by Walmart's Loss Prevention unit. If you are a police officer that is required to be armed, then you may not provide security services for Walmart."
Click to expand...

Well, that's bunk because they are in possession of ammunition and/or firearms when you purchase the same. In the case of a firearms purchase, they usually walk it out to the front of the store -- ergo, in possession.
 
K

Kirbinator

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
903
Location
Middle of the map, Alabama
Maybe I'm not writing this clearly enough. If you purchase a firearm at Wal*Mart, the employee will ring up the purchase in sporting goods, take your money, unlock the case, remove the firearm, relock the case, and request you follow him to the front of the store while he carries the firearm with him. He will then walk out the front door, and hand you your purchased firearm. That has been their policy for the last ten or twenty years. If my information is wrong, please correct me.
 
A

Aaron1124

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
2,044
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
Kirbinator said:
Maybe I'm not writing this clearly enough. If you purchase a firearm at Wal*Mart, the employee will ring up the purchase in sporting goods, take your money, unlock the case, remove the firearm, relock the case, and request you follow him to the front of the store while he carries the firearm with him. He will then walk out the front door, and hand you your purchased firearm. That has been their policy for the last ten or twenty years. If my information is wrong, please correct me.
Click to expand...

You are right. It is their policy. Why? I don't know.
 
Tomas

Tomas

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
702
Location
University Place, Washington, USA
Kirbinator said:
Maybe I'm not writing this clearly enough. If you purchase a firearm at Wal*Mart, the employee will ring up the purchase in sporting goods, take your money, unlock the case, remove the firearm, relock the case, and request you follow him to the front of the store while he carries the firearm with him. He will then walk out the front door, and hand you your purchased firearm. That has been their policy for the last ten or twenty years. If my information is wrong, please correct me.
Click to expand...

Yup. That way in many retail stores that sell firearms, even Cabela's. In fact, when I bought a 'mouse gun' at Cabela's, they walked it out of the store for me even though I bought it using my CPL and was OC with something much larger (and CCing a BUG).

No one said rules have to make sense... :D
 
skidmark

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
I've never had a Wally World minion walk my ammo out the front door for me. I throw the bag with the receipt into my cart and go on with the rest of my shopping. I wave to the nice person at the door on my way out. I put my purchases in the car and drive off.

Same with purchases at Bass Pro Shops, Dicks, and Gander Mountain. OK, at Gander I had the counter person offer to carry my purchase out for me. I told him I had paid for it at his counter, it was now mine, and I intended to shop for some other stuff before I left, and it fit inside the shopping cart very easily. No hassles, not calling for senior management or the cops.

Perhaps Cabella's and some of the hoity-toity places want to offer concierge service, or their customers expect bag-boy service. But unless I've got so much stuff I can't manage it by myself (or I'm feeling lazy) I see no need to let them hold onto my stuff on the theory that I might do something "awful" while still inside the store.

Just for kicks I'm going to ask this" What makes them so sure their employee will not suddenly snap now that they have an actual firearm in their hands - albeit in a box most likely inside a plastic bag?

stay safe.
 
CenTex

CenTex

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
276
Location
,,
Kirbinator said:
Maybe I'm not writing this clearly enough. If you purchase a firearm at Wal*Mart, the employee will ring up the purchase in sporting goods, take your money, unlock the case, remove the firearm, relock the case, and request you follow him to the front of the store while he carries the firearm with him. He will then walk out the front door, and hand you your purchased firearm. That has been their policy for the last ten or twenty years. If my information is wrong, please correct me.
Click to expand...

Walmart here in Redding, CA stopped selling firearms about 8 years ago according to the man at the sporting goods counter. They still sell ammo. I don't remember anyone walking a customer out that had bought either. They may have.

You don't always notice what you are not looking for. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSQJP40PcGI
 
Last edited:
K

Kirbinator

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
903
Location
Middle of the map, Alabama
My point is -- for the brief instant between the "sale" of the firearm and the point where you take possession, the employee completing the sale is in violation of the Wal*Mart policy against firearms. Worse, they are holding your property -- the money is already out of the bank.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top