Hello, all. This is my first post. I have never OC'd before, but I plan on starting once spring rolls around. In the meantime, I have been doing as much research as I can. However, I have hit a roadblock.
I have read several posts here saying that it is legal for OC'ers to ignore so-called Gun Buster stickers, citing the way the law is worded. I decided to look at the law, and reading ORC 2923.1212, it does indeed seem to suggest that these signs don't apply to OC'ers. However, 2923.126(C)(3)(a) which also covers signage, seems to cover both CC'ers and OC'ers, by using the wording "...may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises."
Can someone help me understand the discrepancy here? Thanks.
Actually there is no confusion.
The sign addressed below deals with the general wording required for posting on government buildings, not private buildings.
"2923.1212 Signage prohibiting concealed handguns.
(A) The following persons, boards, and entities, or designees, shall post in the following locations a sign that contains a statement in substantially the following form: “Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person’s control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.” :"
The sign quoted above when used on private buildings has a completely different meaning when using the first part of the wording. The “Unless otherwise authorized by law," applies to CC and the ORC authorizes CC if you have a license. But, even though you have a CC license the law does not allow CC carry into gov. buildings. So, if a private business uses the state authorized sign then they are inviting CC carry on to their premises, IMHO.
The ORC does not regulate OC, except for specific places, jails, schools, court houses, state run mental wards and bars/saloons.
In other words, all a private business has to do is post a sign that says "Notice, NO weapons or dangerous ordnances onto on this land or these premises.” 2923.126(C)(3)(a) is talking about the sign I just suggested.
Have you ever seen a sign that says “Unless otherwise authorized by law, No Trespassing." No, I don't think so.
Last edited by color of law; 11-26-2010 at 09:47 AM.
I agree this is what i was able to come up with from combing through the ORC:
Upon analyzing the semantics/verbiage of the “No Weapons/Gun Buster” signage commonly posted at the entrances of businesses.
“It is illegal to carry a firearm, deadly weapon, or dangerous ordinance anywhere on these premises."
"Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under his control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly handgun or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.”
Under Signage (in Ohio's Concealed Carry Laws Book):
"The law does not say precisely what language must be on the sign. At a minimum, signs must be conspicuous and inform people that firearms and/or concealed handguns are prohibited.
However, the law suggests that the prohibited locations post a sign that substantially says the following:
"Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under his control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly handgun or dangerous ordnance onto these premises."
An example of a standard warning sign approved for use on state buildings (Where CHL is Not Valid under Forbidden Carry Zones)
(This Signage is being used by ignorant private property owners)
Businesses and persons wishing to post such signs are strongly advised to consult their legal counsel for language, style, format, and placement.
The Attorney General is not to be advised for legal counsel
(This website contains materials explaining many portions of Ohio's concealed handgun licensing law. Follow the links on the left side of the page for publications, resources and reference materials. These materials are intended for informational and education purposes only and should not be construed as legal advice. Direct specific questions to an attorney. http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/L...oncealed-Carry)
The AG has only supplied a blueprint for State Buildings!
Signs with this verbiage would not apply to CHL (Concealed Handgun License) holders given the verbiage in the Conceal Carry License application section of the ORC (2923.125)
(k) The applicant certifies that the applicant desires a legal means to carry a concealed handgun for defense of the applicant or a member of the applicant's family while engaged in lawful activity.
n. governmental permission to perform a particular act (like getting married), conduct a particular business or occupation, operate machinery or vehicles after proving ability to do so safely or use property for a certain purpose. 2) n. the certificate that proves one has been granted authority to do something under governmental license. 3) n. a private grant of right to use real property for a particular purpose, such as putting on a concert. 4) n. a private grant of the right to use some intellectual property such as a patent or musical composition. 5) v. to grant permission by governmental authority or private agreement
This leads me to the conclusion that with a CHL issued to you by the State of Ohio you are “Authorized by Law” to carry a “Concealed Handgun.” Thus the “No Weapons” Signage does not apply to Legal Conceal Carry Holders.
Unless the verbiage states “Concealed Handgun License not valid on the premises” or simply "No Guns"
However, this verbiage has the adverse effect of making it illegal for you to purchase some items from these venders that could be defined as an “deadly weapon, or dangerous ordinance”
“Deadly weapon” means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon. (ORC 2923.11)
If could encompass even a set of Steak knives that business has for sale.
The term “conspicuous” is not defined in any Ohio criminal case. The term is defined in civil cases, both in Ohio and in federal cases. Those cases used the dictionary definition. Ohio law even says that the dictionary definition will be followed if not defined in the applicable statute.
The term “conspicuous” means obvious to the eye or mind or attracting attention. Other terms defining “conspicuous” are clear, apparent, visible, patent, evident, manifest, noticeable, blatant, discernible, salient, perceptible.ORC 1.42 Common, technical or particular terms.
Words and phrases shall be read in context and construed according to the rules of grammar and common usage. Words and phrases that have acquired a technical or particular meaning, whether by legislative definition or otherwise, shall be construed accordingly.
One way to be charged with trespass, ORC 2911.21(A)(4), is the person has to admit to actually seeing the sign. Usually being charged with trespass is because the accused will not leave the premises after being asked to do so, either by the owner or cops. If charged a jury must decide that, based on the facts, the posting of the sign was such that the placement was in a conspicuous location AND the accused could, should or would have seen the posted sign. In other words, example, the store has a public front entrance and a public back entrance; and only the front entrance is posted and you enter the store through the back door.
Contrary to those that preach that just by walking into a posted business you will be thrown to the ground, cuffed and hauled off to the pokey most police have NO intentions of arresting someone unless the person is putting up resistance, won't leave.ORC 2911.21(A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:
(4)Being on the land or premises of another, negligently fail or refuse to leave upon being notified by signage posted in a conspicuous place or otherwise being notified to do so by the owner or occupant, or the agent or servant of either.
I have never run across any cases where someone was arrested just because someone violated the posted sign. If there are any I would think the cops involved were just looking to harass someone.
Open carrying into a posted establishment may garner a request for you to leave. Conceal carrying properly will draw no notice. And no notice is no foul.
What I'm saying is if handled properly the actual wording on the sign will never be an issue. Of course an attorney that would not challenge the the wording of the State's sign when posted on a non-government building could only be construed as ineffective assistance of counsel.
Just be safe out there.