Showing your handgun to stop an approaching threat

peter nap said:

There are four types of people you do not want to try to intimidate.

Just think of the 4 D's... Drunks, Druggies, Deranged and Dumb. All four will try to move on your gun if it's out. If your afraid, you might want to think of a change of professions.

When you have your gun out you're at a disadvantage. Your options are whittled down if a justifiable shoot isn't there.

You only have your weak hand to whup his backsides and your exposed gun is easier to turn against you. Most Modern Cops don't have enough sense to carry their pepper on their weak side. Using your radio or cell phone ties up your weak hand even if you could get help in time.

That's why there are so many police shootings. They use their gun instead of a little old fashioned force or common sense.

These things don't happen at 25 yards or even 25 feet. just a couple of yards. If you leave the gun holstered until you've decided lethal force is justified, you just shoot. There's no time lag to allow adrenalinto kick the shakes in and you have already decided which way the fight is going.

There's also no chance of a BS brandishing charge. Just a nice clean justifiable shoot.

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I think I know who to pull my gun out on and who not to, but thanks for the internet police advice. I think that being routinely in violent confrontations/situations has given my opinions more edge on the topic.

Don't pull your gun out on the four D's? Where did you ever hear such b.s. or did you make that up? Drunks, druggies, deranged, and dumb people are even more likely to kill you. They can be armed and/or violent. Ever try to fight a large man on PCP with nothing to lose? You may have to shoot him. Afraid? Who said anything about being afraid? I think I know when to use my gun, spray, hands, taser, etc. given the situation. I do it almost every shift.

Most modern cops don't have enough common sense to carry pepper spray on the weak hand side? FYI, every department I have come into contact with make it a requirement that their officers carry their pepper spray on the weak side. Also, we have two buttons located on our radio and microphone that if pushed alerts every unit/dispatcher that an officer is in trouble and needs priority backup. The buttons can easily be hit even if you are holding objects.

Pulling your gun out doesn't mean you are afraid, just practical in certain circumstances. I can quickly holster my gun if needed. It's not an "intimidation" method like you state, it's being ready for self defense. I am pro citizens carrying guns and using them in situations that need be. It's difficult to correlate LEO weapon usage and citizens because LEOs are expected to be on the "offense and defense" while at times the law only allows citizens to be on the "defense" (best way I could put it). I merely was stating that you could pull your gun and have someone comply without having to use it.

Remember.... REACTIONS ARE ALWAYS SLOWER THAN ACTIONS.

NovaCop10 said:

I think I know who to pull my gun out on and who not to, but thanks for the internet police advice. I think that being routinely in violent confrontations/situations has given my opinions more edge on the topic.

Don't pull your gun out on the four D's? Where did you ever hear such b.s. or did you make that up? Drunks, druggies, deranged, and dumb people are even more likely to kill you. They can be armed and/or violent. Ever try to fight a large man on PCP with nothing to lose? You may have to shoot him. Afraid? Who said anything about being afraid? I think I know when to use my gun, spray, hands, taser, etc. given the situation. I do it almost every shift.

Most modern cops don't have enough common sense to carry pepper spray on the weak hand side? FYI, every department I have come into contact with make it a requirement that their officers carry their pepper spray on the weak side. Also, we have two buttons located on our radio and microphone that if pushed alerts every unit/dispatcher that an officer is in trouble and needs priority backup. The buttons can easily be hit even if you are holding objects.

Pulling your gun out doesn't mean you are afraid, just practical in certain circumstances. I can quickly holster my gun if needed. It's not an "intimidation" method like you state, it's being ready for self defense. I am pro citizens carrying guns and using them in situations that need be. It's difficult to correlate LEO weapon usage and citizens because LEOs are expected to be on the "offense and defense" while at times the law only allows citizens to be on the "defense" (best way I could put it). I merely was stating that you could pull your gun and have someone comply without having to use it.

Remember.... REACTIONS ARE ALWAYS SLOWER THAN ACTIONS.

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Edited

Novacop...whenever you start your "I know best because I write speeding tickets" speech, I think of a joke that fits you.
If you can't run with the big dogs, show em your badge.

NovaCop10 said:

I merely was stating that you could pull your gun and have someone comply without having to use it (and then have someone like myself, a cop in case you forgot or I didn't mention it 800 times already, charge you with brandishing for it).

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Right?

peter nap said:

Edited

Novacop...whenever you start your "I know best because I write speeding tickets" speech, I think of a joke that fits you.
If you can't run with the big dogs, show em your badge.

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Peter,
Shooting safely from behind the red line at a paper target does not make you a qualified person to talk about lethal self defense.

You act like an internet know it all, which diminishes your credibility. "Four B's"..hahahaha, still makes me laugh... I thought that might have just been your opening act and I stopped by to see if your show included anymore police/self defense tactics? You should sell tickets for this comedy.


..........---Moderator Reminder---
While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

"I'll thank you, sir, to keep a civil tongue in your head."

NovaCop10 said:

Peter,
Shooting safely from behind the red line at a paper target does not make you a qualified person to talk about lethal self defense.

You act like an internet know it all, which diminishes your credibility. "Four B's"..hahahaha, still makes me laugh... I thought that might have just been your opening act and I stopped by to see if your show included anymore police/self defense tactics? You should sell tickets for this comedy.

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Speaking of laughing, you were the topic of conversation this morning.:lol:

Dammit...had to edit again, but I'll go along with the crowd and bet you are!

Use of Minimal Force

I find it curious that no one has described "brandishing" as part of "use of minimal force". This was taught to me in the Air Force Security Police.

With the multitude of scenarios and situations out there, there are times when you may have time and opportunity to defuse a situation by displaying or brandishing your weapon. Make no mistake, "use of minimal force" assumes time to evaluate and opportunity to use lesser means than deadly force. It is not hesitation. It is evaluating and using the proper force necessary to control the situation. It may be voice commands, escalating to display (brandishing ) of your weapon, escalating to engaging the target(s), or you may not have time and jump straight to engagement and stop the threat(s).

"Use of minimal force" takes a great deal of training and is much better than guessing if you can or cannot shoot. IMO there is no such thing as too much training. Simply waiting until you have no other options than deadly force is begging to get into trouble that you may not survive.

Whatever force you use, be the first to call the cops.

Big difference....

The drawing of a weapon and "brandishing" by a police officer or military police in the conduct of their duties is treated VERY differently in the legal system than it is for a citizen who is NOT an agent of the State. NovaCop and others here who relate incidents relative to their job wherein they drew their firearm are not saying that what they did would be appropriate for you or I to do. Our "spectrum" of available actions in the face of a threat is much smaller than that, based on both statutes and case law. It is a simple fact that we must live with until we manage to get it changed. User can probably outline the differences if he has the time, but we ordinary citizens must learn the ROE we operate under and not try to apply NovaCops experience to our problems. That will put you in front of a judge....

Notice I said "legal" system, not "Justice" system...

Unfortunately, in Virginia the display of a firearm is essentially considered the use of deadly force, which is why you hear so much said about "if you pull it you better use it".

Obviously there are exceptions, even written into the statute prohibiting brandishing as a general rule. However, it has not been our fortune to find an example of case law where that exception has been interpreted in favor of the person so brandishing.

There are known instances where the presenting of a firearm has sufficed to stop the imminent threat of death or great bodily harm - but in those cases the person who so presented was not charged with a criminal act. So, again, no case law to guide us.

The difference you are proposing is what a law enforcement officer may do as opposed to what the average, reasonable, and prudent individual may not do. Different rules for different classes.

stay safe.

NovaCop10 said:

Peter,
Shooting safely from behind the red line at a paper target does not make you a qualified person to talk about lethal self defense.

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NovaCop10, it might be enlightening to know to whom your are directing your remarks. I suspect that you know little to nothing about who Peter Nap is, where he has been or what he has done. Please feel free to come to one of our OC dinners or any other function where Peter is present - I suspect that you would be positively surprised and I can assure you that you'd be treated with the cutesy you would expect.

Too there are a number of us on this forum that are or have been DCJS academy instructors and have spent some considerable time with LEAs; nevertheless, on this forum we are all on equal footing. As for me, I listen to John and Mike (it is their site); User and a few others are excellent researchers, but like the rest of us they are giving "opinions" - granted some more learned than others.

Please don't presume that I am singling you out. That is not my intent. You did however, provide the impetus to remind all of us that disagreeing on the subject is normal and expected sometimes - waving one's "credentials" and demeaning the other only reduces your effectiveness.

NovaCop10 said:

Peter,
Shooting safely from behind the red line at a paper target does not make you a qualified person to talk about lethal self defense.

You act like an internet know it all, which diminishes your credibility. "Four B's"..hahahaha, still makes me laugh... I thought that might have just been your opening act and I stopped by to see if your show included anymore police/self defense tactics? You should sell tickets for this comedy.


..........---Moderator Reminder---
While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

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I would be willing to say without a doubt that Peter Nap or USER would have you for a snack If you try to start a law debate with them. Try coming to VCDL meeting or a OC dinner and who knows you might like some of the people there. Stop acting like that badge is a crown. We the people gave you that power and we the people may take it away.

I think the issue that NOVACOP has with the aforementioned posts is the lack of source citing. I too am curious about the validity of some of the statements made. That aside, I do not know anyone's credentials and/or qualifications. I'm certain they are diverse and surprisingly unique.

Palerider,

I agree with you. I only called out User and Peternap because I believed they are wrong. I used cites and critiqued what they said and looked forward to a civilized debate. Their only rebuttals turned personal or avoided my stance altogether.

Palerider requested Peternap cite his sources (forum rules) and he flat out ignored that request. I called out User on his misguided knowledge of what resisting arrest is in VA and he avoided that subject all together.

I don't like to see LEOs slandered and I don't like to see misguided legal information given out. I am pro gun rights btw. I started on this thread because I believed that showing your gun can stop a threat w/out having to use it. I already mentioned in my earlier post that LEOs using their weapons is a different issue. I still think a citizen can show a weapon and neutralize a threat without having to shoot in some situations.

NovaCop10 said:

Palerider,

I agree with you. I only called out User and Peternap because I believed they are wrong. I used cites and critiqued what they said and looked forward to a civilized debate. Their only rebuttals turned personal or avoided my stance altogether.

Palerider requested Peternap cite his sources (forum rules) and he flat out ignored that request. I called out User on his misguided knowledge of what resisting arrest is in VA and he avoided that subject all together.

I don't like to see LEOs slandered and I don't like to see misguided legal information given out. I am pro gun rights btw. I started on this thread because I believed that showing your gun can stop a threat w/out having to use it. I already mentioned in my earlier post that LEOs using their weapons is a different issue. I still think a citizen can show a weapon and neutralize a threat without having to shoot in some situations.

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Forum rules state that legal cites be made. This isn't legal. It's opinion and based on a lot of years of training, both from people like you (and I have a lot of scars from listening to that) and more realistic courses.
User already gave legal sources on brandishing. As usual, you know more than him.

If you want a list of classes to take, talk to Philip. I think he just finished a pretty good one.

Years ago I said something about Christmas being hectic and some dumbass (Sorry John) started crying "Cite", "Cite". I don't think I paid much attention to that one either.

I'm not going to preform on demand for you or play into your stupid games Novacop. I saw Paleriders request.
Now, go find a friendly 7-11 and tell them all about how tough it is on the streets giving them old ladies tickets.

As far as taking advice, I always tell people not to take advice from the internet. The nets gives you options to follow, nothing more.

About 50 years ago I was a Ski Instructor. A fellow wanted to learn to hotdog (that was before extreme). I kept telling him to stay off of his tails and he kept coming back with articles he had read and he was sure they were right. I got tired of it and let him do what he wanted. He skied off into the woods and broke his arm. I thought it was funny then and still chuckle about it.

Please...take your own advice Nova229.

Well, that was ambitious! I, myself, would not attempt to match the voluminous legal experience one might pick up as a police officer over a few years' experience in the Fairfax General District Court.

This from the rules -

The law is always in a state of flux and even lawyers and judges get it wrong from time to time. All advice posted on this forum should be considered nothing more than hearsay. Even if a poster identifies themselves as an attorney, law enforcement official or expert in a given field...........

Said another way, these are all "opinions" and opinions are like azz-hulls....everybody has at least one of each. Glorification or self-aggrandizement changes nothing.

CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite.............

Then add to the mix that we discuss the issue, not the personality. In fact to do otherwise is a violation of yet another rule - they are all interwoven. So be nice and don't say, "You are stupid, ignorant so-and-so and I demand a cite for your opinion." Instead, politely show w/o rancor why their opinion or proposition doesn't hold water IYO.

NovaCop10 said:

I don't like to see LEOs slandered and I don't like to see misguided legal information given out. I am pro gun rights btw. I started on this thread because I believed that showing your gun can stop a threat w/out having to use it. I already mentioned in my earlier post that LEOs using their weapons is a different issue. I still think a citizen can show a weapon and neutralize a threat without having to shoot in some situations.

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Novacop,

Are you a lawyer? I see that you are stating their is misguided legal information being given out, would you be so kind as to state what that is and show the code that makes it so. The police officers I have spoken with have not all demonstrated that they knew the law.

I would also like to point out that as a leo you are in quite a different position than the typical armed citizen. I do not have backup on the way, I do not carry restraints for unruly threats, I do not carry non lethal alternative to my firearm. It goes from hands to glock with no stop in the middle. No taser, no pepper spray, no implied legal actions by the DA.

I am not saying that your advice or experience is bad, but I do not see it as being wholly applicable to the average armed citizen.

By the way this is only my opinion. I am not a lawyer and I do not work in law enforcement.

tcmech said:

Novacop,

Are you a lawyer? I see that you are stating their is misguided legal information being given out, would you be so kind as to state what that is and show the code that makes it so. The police officers I have spoken with have not all demonstrated that they knew the law.

I would also like to point out that as a leo you are in quite a different position than the typical armed citizen. I do not have backup on the way, I do not carry restraints for unruly threats, I do not carry non lethal alternative to my firearm. It goes from hands to glock with no stop in the middle. No taser, no pepper spray, no implied legal actions by the DA.

I am not saying that your advice or experience is bad, but I do not see it as being wholly applicable to the average armed citizen.

By the way this is only my opinion. I am not a lawyer and I do not work in law enforcement.

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Techmec,

Once again I will state that I don't pretend to be a lawyer, but I do enforce laws. The post I was referring to was the thread titled "Is it necessary to reply to a LEO's request during a traffic stop?" specifically the 3rd page. It's a few threads down from this one on the VA forum. It has to deal with resisting arrest in VA. I clearly demonstrated User was incorrect about what a resisting arrest charge is in VA and backed it with the code. He made no rebuttal. I encourage anyone that disagrees with me to show evidence I am wrong. I would like to be as informed as possible and if you know more than I do, than it would only benefit me to learn more. I don't look for confrontations but look to understand the law as best as possible. I always give cites when I post legal information.

Once again, I agree that LEOs and citizens have different expectations/rules when it comes to firearms. Backup rarely is involved in LEO shooting situations. I separate the two aspects when I am on here.

NovaCop10 said:

I am also a little confused with the posters question. Are they asking if they pull the gun out? Or merely "lift the shirt to show the goods"? Lifting your shirt to show a weapon is technically not illegal. I've seen that warrant get denied several times, just recently actually. However, handling the weapon to induce fear would be brandishing. The law allows you to do so for self defense means. Like others mentioned, make sure you truly are in fear of death or serious injury. In most cases of brandishing, the person who you pulled the gun out on would have to go before the magistrate to request the warrant.

I am not a huge fan of the theory that "if you pull your gun, you must shoot someone". I have pulled my gun out on many people that were threats. Sometimes the threat of a weapon will make someone quickly comply and no longer be a threat. Also, if you have to pull and shoot your gun, it means you are already behind the curve. There are times when you must pull and shoot, but I think stating that if you pull your gun you will shoot is not practical self defense.

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I agree, and I did mean (lift shirt to show there is a weapon there) In hope the person would stop his agressive advance towards me and family. I can lift my shirt and show the weapon without (touching it) which wouldnt be brandishing??

Please read through some of the resources that Skidmark posted earlier.

There is a cite to a case in there (Morris v. Commonwealth), where a man was convicted of brandishing for lifting his shirt but never touching the flare gun he had in his waist.

As with everything else, much depends on the circumstances. There are very few subjects that are plain black and white.

TFred

skidmark said:

Want to know what "brandishing" is yunder Virginia law? Look here http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html and the next page (wade through some of the cases till you get to the difference between "fear" and "apprehension", plus http://google.vipnet.org/search?Que...http://www.courts.state.va.us/google/scv.xslt (Court of Appeals cases involving brandishing) plus http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1032714.pdf (the Va Supreme Court case on brandishing .

As most of us have figured out, the Code of Virginia is merely the starting place for determining what the law she is. The definitive answer is found in the interpretation of the courts. And if there is more than one case, then case law is the next decision that the court issues based on your appeal of the lower court(s) not accepting your version of the aggregate view up until your case.

So, does anybody care to offer their interpretation in one declarative statement with no dependant or independant clauses without using punctuation as much to denote places to stop for breath as to divide ordinate and subordinate concepts?

stay safe.

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