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Thread: Utah Open Law questions

  1. #1
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    Wink Utah Open Law questions

    I am the proud owner of a Bersa Thunder 380cc i can now call my own. I have always been proud of constitution. Just had some questions about the open carry laws in Utah. I will be taking the CWP next month in a class in Ogden, Utah and fill out rest of paperwork after that. Just a few questions i need clarity on.

    1. To open carry in Utah, the gun must be 2 steps from firing right. so with safety on and a hammer pull to load round. I'm good right. I know i cant take it near school zones or federal places or places that post no firearms, until i get my CWP permit. Just need some clarity.

    2. Now in my own personal vehicle registered to me, does it still need 2 steps or can i carry a round in chamber? More clarity please.

    3. Ive noticed on forums some carry pamphlets and books where can i obtain these.

    Thanks for time in this matter.

  2. #2
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    In Utah the "rule" is 2 actions from firing to be legal OC'ing without a permit the Utah recognizes. Safeties do not count as one of the actions. Utah statute specifies for a semi-auto to be "UNLOADED" that the chamber must be empty. You are good to go with a full mag inserted into the firearm but the chamber must be empty. So the two actions would be: 1- rack slide and 2- squeeze the trigger.
    For a revolver (again OC'ing without a permit) cylinder under the hammer and the next cylinder in rotation must be empty. And the two actions from firing would be 2 trigger pulls. In effect it turns a 5 shot revolver into a 3 shot revolver.


    As far as car carry--- assuming you are 18 years or older, are legally able to possess a firearm, and are in legal possession or control of the vehicle, OR if you are a passenger in the car with the vehicle operators permission and you are 18 or over, and legally able to possess a firearm----

    YOU CAN CARRY IN ANY MANNER YOU DESIRE-- OPEN OR CONCEALED, LOADED OR UNLOADED (referring to the firearm) or any combination of open, concealed, loaded, or unloaded.

    Beware, however, the car carry applies only as long as you are in or on the vehicle (motorcycle). State gun free school zones still apply IF YOU ARE OUTSIDE THE VEHICLE. Utah's GFSZ applies to daycares, k-12 schools, COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES, Trade schools, and UTAH's roving school zones ( either know or reasonably should have known standard applies to all the preceding.) State GFSZ is 1000 feet from the PROPERTY LINE-- NOT THE BUILDING! Utah GFSZ is more restrictive than the Federal GFSZ as the Federal one only applies to K-12 schools.

    Here is a GREAT link you may find interesting as a repository of Federal and State Gun laws, Utah AG opinions, certain pertinent law cases, etc.

    http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi....php?f=11&t=99

    Generally signs in Utah restricting the possession or carry of firearms merely advise you that someone does not want you to carry there. Obviously, Post offices, Federal and state courthouses, secure portions of jails, prisons, and airports are taboo.
    For areas like malls, hospitals, stores.... you can be asked to leave the premises for any reason by a person in control of the location and you could be charged with trespassing if you fail to leave upon their request. But to prevail in court on the trespassing charge against you IF you are legally at a location open to the public they must prove the you have impaired them in some way. The specifics can be found at the link posted above.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 11-27-2010 at 12:15 AM.

  3. #3
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    I thank you for all the information. After more hours of reading i will becoming a open carry in the near future. One last clarification. I am over 18 and own my own car. When i go to pick up my daughter from school and not leave the car. Am i allowed to still have weapon in car, i know you post says i can, but like double checking. Thanks for all the great information.

    More info: Just talking with relatives that work at the centerville walmart. They say they go by federal regulations and will escort you off the premises if you try to open carry in there store. Guess every store is differernt. I even tried telling them i can cause it utahs law i can. But i dont want them to get in trouble. So i will leave it at that.
    Last edited by Pegasus1976; 11-27-2010 at 01:18 AM. Reason: More info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus1976 View Post
    I thank you for all the information. After more hours of reading i will becoming a open carry in the near future. One last clarification. I am over 18 and own my own car. When i go to pick up my daughter from school and not leave the car. Am i allowed to still have weapon in car, i know you post says i can, but like double checking. Thanks for all the great information.

    More info: Just talking with relatives that work at the centerville walmart. They say they go by federal regulations and will escort you off the premises if you try to open carry in there store. Guess every store is differernt. I even tried telling them i can cause it utahs law i can. But i dont want them to get in trouble. So i will leave it at that.
    I have NO personal experience with the Centerville Walmart. I understand that Walmart's corp. policy is "to follow state law". I did have a little "incident" in the Lindon walmart a couple years ago.... turned into a friendly discussion about open carry, concealed carry permits, ect.

    State law allows the open carry of a firearm by anyone 18 years of age or older who is not a prohibited person.

    Walmart and many other companies have Employee policies that are more restrictive than what they impose upon customers. Sometimes company employees fail to recognize that the restrictions imposed upon employees by an employer under threat of being unemployed IS NOT THE POLICY WITH REGARDS TO CUSTOMERS just wanting to spend some money for a product the company is selling!

    As has been reported MANY times on this forum, generally a contact with corp leads to some "remedial" training aimed toward managers and or employees about CUSTOMER SATISFACTION principles.

    Obviously, OC'ing a firearm does not mean that you are holstering and un-holstering your firearm randomly as you wander the store.... ect.

    As far as a legal determination about car carry in a school zone the recommendation is to do your own research, contact an attorney, and understand the subtle nuances related to carry.

    I am NOT a Lawyer and what I post online is not legal advice and is worth exactly what you have paid for it!

    Having a Concealed Carry permit does expand the freedom to carry in many locations and situation.

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    I thank you for the response. Been a big help. I will just avoid schools with it. Until the permit comes through. Best way to avoid conflict and trouble.

  6. #6
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    Bear in mind that the Utah law on carrying a gun "on public streets" (may be widely interpreted to include most public areas in urban/suburban areas) without benefit of permit is 3 fold:

    1-The gun must not have a round in firing position;

    2-There must not be an unexpended round in a position such that the manual operation of any single mechanism will cause the round to fire; (our 2-step rule);

    3-The gun must not be concealed.

    If you violate ANY of these three conditions you are violation of Utah law. See specifically 76-10-502, 504, and 505, all accessible at http://le.utah.gov/UtahCode/section.jsp?code=76-10

    There are, in addition to this some prohibited locations (including school zones and federal facilities) and some exemptions (such as inside a private vehicle lawfully under your control).

    76-10-505 makes clear that inside a vehicle under your lawful control (or with the permission of the person lawfully in control) you may have a fully loaded handgun without needing a permit to carry. Long guns must be unloaded in or on any vehicle unless you have a permit to carry.

    With the exception of defined prohibited areas, houses of worship, and private homes, "no gun" signs carry no legal weight in Utah. They certainly indicate that you are likely to be asked (told) to leave if you gun comes to the attention of the management. But there is no "gun" crime for ignoring the signs.

    I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

    All the best.

    Charles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus1976 View Post
    More info: Just talking with relatives that work at the centerville walmart...
    FYI: I've open carried in that exact Walmart on several occasions and never had a problem. I'm certain on at least a few of those times that the door greeter and other employees noticed my gun.

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    Yet a bit more clarity....

    The above information regarding carry in a vehicle is true as long as the gun in question is a handgun, (the topic of the original post). To carry a loaded long gun in a vehicle requires the CCW / CFP / (insert acronym of choice here). Yes, this was implied, but not explicitly stated, and could be misunderstood.

    And, as always, WELCOME!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by colormered View Post
    The above information regarding carry in a vehicle is true as long as the gun in question is a handgun, (the topic of the original post). To carry a loaded long gun in a vehicle requires the CCW / CFP / (insert acronym of choice here). Yes, this was implied, but not explicitly stated, and could be misunderstood.

    And, as always, WELCOME!!!
    Absolutely, and thanks for pointing that IMPORTANT piece out.
    LOADED LONG GUN IN A VEHICLE WITHOUT A PERMIT IS AGAINST THE LAW!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasus1976 View Post
    I thank you for all the information. After more hours of reading i will becoming a open carry in the near future. One last clarification. I am over 18 and own my own car. When i go to pick up my daughter from school and not leave the car. Am i allowed to still have weapon in car, i know you post says i can, but like double checking. Thanks for all the great information.
    No! To be clear according to Utah Law you are okay as there is a vehicle exception to 76-10-505.5. However, the federal exception to the Gun Free School Zone Act either requires you to have it locked and completely unloaded (not utah unloaded) in the car, or possess a permit issued by the state of Utah which you can't get until 21.

    Yes this does mean several thousand people probably break this law daily when they carry in their vehicles in states across the country and you MAY not get prosecuted for it. But just make sure you know the laws so you can make an informed decision to break any of them.

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    Well Said,,,Joe S.

    I recently went to Las Vegas (The wife's family reunion-had to go), anyway, I read around on their OC site, but I read the NV State Code Regarding Firearms. If had a Police encounter which I didn't, I didn't want to quote a Open Carry Website as my source of information.
    Joe took a lot of time to "spell it out" for you, and nailed it right on the head, but still read the State Code yourself before you begin to OC. IMHO.

    Carry On...
    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
    NRA Pistol Instructor & RSO

    Lover of Freedom

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    For a revolver (again OC'ing without a permit) cylinder under the hammer and the next cylinder in rotation must be empty. And the two actions from firing would be 2 trigger pulls. In effect it turns a 5 shot revolver into a 3 shot revolver.
    True for a Double Action Revolver. A Single Action Revolver only has to have no round in firing position.

    For a North American Arms 5 shot mini revolver, it can be carried with all five loaded if you put it in the intermediate "safety" position with the hammer between rounds.

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    Cool Resources

    If you go to the Utah BCI website (use the portal through the Department of Public Safety to be sure you get the "latest and greatest"), you can download the required curriculum for the BCI Concealed Firearm Permit Course. This is a one stop shop for Utah and Federal gun laws. If you have questions, you can call BCI or PM one of those who are BCI Certified Instructors (like Pistol Pete or myself, or the many other BCI Instructors on this forum) and ask us your question. Or simply post it on the forum. I always recommend to students that they download and read the material before coming to class. That makes for more productive and efficient class and we have time to discuss "what if" and "what about" questions.

    Utah's CFP course teaches basic handgun safety, procedures, and most of all, the law regarding the use of handguns. Depending on your skill level, I recommend taking an NRA Pistol Course if you are new to handguns. All BCI Certified Instructors are either current law enforcement instructors, NRA Certified Instructors, or both. Utah does not require a live fire exercise but many of us do live fire and help our students, particularly those new to handguns. It is one thing to practice a position using a "blue gun", it is quite another to fire "service caliber" handguns. There are many "tactical" classes out there, but if you are new to handguns it pays to start by learning the fundamentals of pistol shooting from somebody properly accredited to teach you. (NRA Instructor - Pistol)

    For other states, a good resource is www.handgunlaw.us - I have personally found it to be mostly accurate and I concur with the website authors - if you plan on travel in another state, consult that state's official website dealing with firearm transport and carry.

    Open carry is not prohibited in Utah, but do keep those 1000 foot no-go areas (Gun Free School Zones) in mind and remember that they apply to pre-K through Grad School with the only exception being that you are in your car. Step out of the car in a GFSZ and you are breaking Federal Law and committing a felony. It is best to have a Permit.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    what are the utah laws about ccw and schools etc i conceal carry in wv and just moved here from what i got emailed to me by the bci i dont need to get a new permit but the laws here i assume will be different also i dont like to conceal if i have a permit and decide to open while i carry my permit does it still have to be 2 steps or can i carry condition 1
    "best shooting gun is the gun you shoot best" tony mar

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    Quote Originally Posted by k31 View Post
    what are the utah laws about ccw and schools etc i conceal carry in wv and just moved here from what i got emailed to me by the bci i dont need to get a new permit but the laws here i assume will be different also i dont like to conceal if i have a permit and decide to open while i carry my permit does it still have to be 2 steps or can i carry condition 1
    Some assumptions here... I assume by wv you mean West Virginia not West Valley in Salt Lake. While Utah honors Any states permit and as such you are exempt from UTAH's dangerous weapons in schools statutes YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF IN VIOLATION OF THE FEDERAL GFSZ LAW as the Fed's require the permit to be issued by the state in which the schools are located. So, in this area I would recommend one acquire a UTAH permit!
    Also, Utah ALLOWS concealment with a permit--- Concealment is NOT REQUIRED.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k31 View Post
    what are the utah laws about ccw and schools etc i conceal carry in wv and just moved here from what i got emailed to me by the bci i dont need to get a new permit but the laws here i assume will be different also i dont like to conceal if i have a permit and decide to open while i carry my permit does it still have to be 2 steps or can i carry condition 1
    I join with a previous recommendation that in addition to your West Virginia permit, you obtain a Utah CFP. This is not difficult to do and in Utah there are so many instructors that the prices for courses are held down by market forces. And, the Utah permit is recognized in more States than your WV permit giving you much better coverage if you travel. An additional argument involves NH, ME, SC, FL, MI, and CO. These states only recognize permits if you are a legal resident of the State that issues the permit. Moving to Utah cost you reciprocity in FL and MI. You get that back + CO and NH with a Utah permit. Your WV permit gives you Nevada anyway (Nevada no longer recognizes a UT permit) so with both permits you are covered in all states that border UT.)

    In discussions with Utah BCI, the matter of the Federal Gun Free School Zones is untested in the courts. If you have a Utah permit, it is clear that you can carry concealed in a GFSZ in UT. The clouds begin to form around reciprocity and recognition due to the wording of the Federal Law. Utah as a formal written reciprocity agreement with West Virginia. In theory that means that a WV permit is equal to a Utah permit, but this has never been tested in the courts with respect to the Federal GFSZ. Recognition introduces even more haze as Utah "recognizes" any valid permit from any state. While this is untested in the courts, my personal advice is to get a UT permit and thus not become a test case.

    Given that Utah and WV have formal written reciprocity, you may open carry, but subject to the same restrictions and law governing a person who possesses a current and valid Utah Concealed Firearm Permit. Since a Utah CFP holder can carry "condition 1", so can you (subject to certain restrictions on both you and a Utah CFP holder). The right to open carry in Utah is not absolute. I recommend you visit the Utah BCI site and download the course curriculum for the Utah CFP course. This is an excellent "one stop shop" for Utah and Federal firearms law.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  17. #17
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    While this forum has a wealth of information on open carry and other items... as a subforum on a NATION-WIDE forum it doesn't have as detailed information about carrying in Utah as another web forum does....
    Many Utah persons active on OCDO are also active on this forum... www.utahconcealedcarry.com Please don't think that the reference to Concealed means that you will be looked down upon for OC'ing on the forum. One of the highlights of the reference forum is that they have a compilation of laws that is keep current specific to Utah and Federal Gun Laws....
    The link to that section is: http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/vi....php?f=11&t=99

    While many here including me may offer our OPINIONS based upon our own understanding of the law, speaking for myself, I am NOT A LAWYER and I am not giving legal advice. Any information you get from me is worth exactly what you've paid for it. Research the law yourself--- and the link supplied will help with this--- and determine for yourself based upon your own understanding what is legal and/or contact an attorney yourself.

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