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Thread: Police dept. trainning memo's on Open Carry.

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    Regular Member jsanchez's Avatar
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    Police dept. trainning memo's on Open Carry.

    Would it be a good idea to have all the trainning memo's from the different police departments grouped in one thread in the permanent blue section at the beginning of the Washington forum, so OCers in different cities could have these memo's to show police when police make the mistake of telling OCers that they can't OC.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanchez View Post
    Would it be a good idea to have all the trainning memo's from the different police departments grouped in one thread in the permanent blue section at the beginning of the Washington forum, so OCers in different cities could have these memo's to show police when police make the mistake of telling OCers that they can't OC.
    Here: http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads

    I don't know that showing a LEO will make a difference.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    And: http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/open_...washington.pdf for a double-sided wallet pamphlet.

    I'm getting a "connection refused" for http://forum.nwcdl.org - transient problem?
    Last edited by John Hardin; 11-26-2010 at 11:06 PM.

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    AWESOME STUFF! I have the training bulletins from Pennsylvania for when I go home and was looking for this also. Thanks for asking, and thanks for posting. +1's for EVERYBODY!

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    I am working the issue with the MySQL database now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Here: http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads

    I don't know that showing a LEO will make a difference.
    I mildly disagree. Does this mean we shouldn't try? I thought our purpose was to educate the public, LEOs included. We would not be doing so if I didn't offer this during a stop. I will thoroughly read this information and have it readily available if stopped while OCing.

    I for one would cast my vote for this being worth a try at the very least. Every LEO, IMHO, deserves a chance to show themselves a fool, or among the wise. Maybe one will learn something from this that they didn't the first time they saw it o.O

    It's still a GREAT post by all parties involved and great information for OCers to have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hardin View Post
    And: http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/open_...washington.pdf for a double-sided wallet pamphlet.

    I'm getting a "connection refused" for http://forum.nwcdl.org - transient problem?
    It is a transient problem on the server side. I think they may have been working on the server config for another client and caused a bigger problem with other clients. One reason I prefer to lease my own server. I hate not being root.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    I mildly disagree. Does this mean we shouldn't try? I thought our purpose was to educate the public, LEOs included. We would not be doing so if I didn't offer this during a stop. I will thoroughly read this information and have it readily available if stopped while OCing.

    I for one would cast my vote for this being worth a try at the very least. Every LEO, IMHO, deserves a chance to show themselves a fool, or among the wise. Maybe one will learn something from this that they didn't the first time they saw it o.O

    It's still a GREAT post by all parties involved and great information for OCers to have.
    In my experience dealing with LE, during an OC "discussion" during a MWAG call, they aren't very receptive to pamphlets/handouts.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    In my experience dealing with LE, during an OC "discussion" during a MWAG call, they aren't very receptive to pamphlets/handouts.
    And sir, you have actually encountered/been detained if I am not mistaken.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    In my experience dealing with LE, during an OC "discussion" during a MWAG call, they aren't very receptive to pamphlets/handouts.
    They usually are not very receptive to your rights either at that point either.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    May not help at the encounter stage, but if you could show that the officer's department had issued a training bulletin and the officer was not following said bulletin, your attorney would sure like that during the civil trail...

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    Some are receptive to info.....

    Back last year I had a issue with a Federal Way officer who stopped me on my way out of the new transit center. During the stop I filled him in on the laws and also that Federal Way was the first city to issue a training bulletin. When we parted ways he took a copy of the training bulletin and pamphlet with him.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Actually officer Aimu seemed pretty open to discussion in my illegal detention but the several other officers surrounding me were not.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    And sir, you have actually encountered/been detained if I am not mistaken.
    Correct
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

    A 1911 that works properly is as rare as a Glock that doesn't.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsanchez View Post
    Would it be a good idea to have all the trainning memo's from the different police departments grouped in one thread in the permanent blue section at the beginning of the Washington forum, so OCers in different cities could have these memo's to show police when police make the mistake of telling OCers that they can't OC.
    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Here: http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads

    I don't know that showing a LEO will make a difference.
    I agree gogo, at the moment of a negative contact but would assist in providing those issues to City Officials as to what other Cities or Counties have concluded.

    I do use these time to time, thanks for keeping them easily accessible.
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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    In my experience dealing with LE, during an OC "discussion" during a MWAG call, they aren't very receptive to pamphlets/handouts.
    Agreed.

    However, when it goes to court, it will look 10x worse when you say ' I had a copy of the training bulletin issued by their agency, but they said they didn't care, refused to even look at it, and refused to verify the information that it contained. The entire incident could have been reduced or eliminated had they viewed the information at hand.

    Disregarding information that's available shows that their interest is enforcing THEIR wishes, and not the law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Agreed.

    However, when it goes to court, it will look 10x worse when you say ' I had a copy of the training bulletin issued by their agency, but they said they didn't care, refused to even look at it, and refused to verify the information that it contained. The entire incident could have been reduced or eliminated had they viewed the information at hand.

    Disregarding information that's available shows that their interest is enforcing THEIR wishes, and not the law.
    Agreed! Yet another reason to at least try.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Agreed.

    However, when it goes to court, it will look 10x worse when you say ' I had a copy of the training bulletin issued by their agency, but they said they didn't care, refused to even look at it, and refused to verify the information that it contained. The entire incident could have been reduced or eliminated had they viewed the information at hand.

    Disregarding information that's available shows that their interest is enforcing THEIR wishes, and not the law.
    Why would it ever go to court? If the Dept had issued a training bulletin, and one of their officers was unaware or ignored it, the whole matter would probably be handled by a supervisor.

    I don't see it as surprising that an officer would not care to look at any information provided by someone he contacted, claiming it came from "his" department. How is he/she to know it's even real. Rather than trying to pass the info, request a supervisor and ask the supervisor to look into the TB. That will also have the effect of getting the offending officer some additional training, even if it is only the supervisor telling him his actions are wrong.

    Why do we always see everything as ending up in Court. In looking back at any of the "issues" that have arisen involving police officers conduct in my life, every one has been resolved with a phone call, letter, or meeting. Never had to take one to Court.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Why would it ever go to court? If the Dept had issued a training bulletin, and one of their officers was unaware or ignored it, the whole matter would probably be handled by a supervisor.

    I don't see it as surprising that an officer would not care to look at any information provided by someone he contacted, claiming it came from "his" department. How is he/she to know it's even real. Rather than trying to pass the info, request a supervisor and ask the supervisor to look into the TB. That will also have the effect of getting the offending officer some additional training, even if it is only the supervisor telling him his actions are wrong.

    Why do we always see everything as ending up in Court. In looking back at any of the "issues" that have arisen involving police officers conduct in my life, every one has been resolved with a phone call, letter, or meeting. Never had to take one to Court.
    There is a few valid points there Amlevin. I never thought about the "claiming it came from his department" view of it. It should all be solved quickly though it someone finally reads it.

    Why are people so set on being right all the time? Read it, and move on. Even LEOs are human and can make a mistake. It takes a bigger man to admit it (as my parents always said)

    OT: Contrary to popular belief, some of us have had LEO interactions also. Not everything is negative. I figure if you treat them like a human, most interactions will go better. Mayhaps I am naive, but I know a handful of LEOs, retired and active that just want to make sure on a stop they are and feel SAFE.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    There is a few valid points there Amlevin. I never thought about the "claiming it came from his department" view of it. It should all be solved quickly though it someone finally reads it.

    Why are people so set on being right all the time? Read it, and move on. Even LEOs are human and can make a mistake. It takes a bigger man to admit it (as my parents always said)

    OT: Contrary to popular belief, some of us have had LEO interactions also. Not everything is negative. I figure if you treat them like a human, most interactions will go better. Mayhaps I am naive, but I know a handful of LEOs, retired and active that just want to make sure on a stop they are and feel SAFE.
    There wanting to feel safe over my rights is were I draw the line. If you can't be an LEO with an armed public don't be an LEO.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    There wanting to feel safe over my rights is were I draw the line. If you can't be an LEO with an armed public don't be an LEO.
    Very valid point SVG, very valid.

    OT: I was always asked when I joined the Army why I did it. I wonder if they have to ask why they want to be an LEO. I'd love to see some of these answers
    Last edited by Deleted_User; 11-29-2010 at 01:42 AM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    I wonder if they have to ask why they want to be an LEO. I'd love to see some of these answers
    The majority do so for the same reasons that one takes any other job. A career that provides Salary, Benefits, and Retirement. Some will also do so out of a desire to be involved in their community.

    Then there are those that want to be LEO's because the job provides "A gun, A fast Car, and the instructions "Go Look For Trouble". This is the group that seems to also provide the greatest amount of problems for the public. Thankfully they appear to be the minority. Unfortunately, they are the ones that get the most "press".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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