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Thread: If I were you I wouldnt....(advice from a cop)

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    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    If I were you I wouldnt....(advice from a cop)

    So on the way home today I stopped at quick check in Asheboro for a cup of coffee and there was an Asheboro PD officer there. As I was checking out and leaving he asked me who I was working for. I could of said that I just got off work from my security job but instead I said no one I am just open OC'ing, He nodded and asked if we could have a word out side. He aid he was going to give me some friendly advice. There has been a new law passed GATTTP, and if even one person saw me OC and was afraid he could arest me and seize my firearm and he didn't want that to happen to me (how nice of him)[esp when he added that he was a member of the NRA as well] so he recommended that I not OC anymore. I told him that our understanding of the law differed quite a bit and since I was a vetren of the united states millitary that served to protect y 2A rights that I was going to OC any and everywhere legally allowed, He nodded we both went back in the store I paid for my coffee and said good day to him and he smiled and said have a good day back. What hould I take from this and how can I handle this next time?
    -----------------
    --SCOTT

    Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

  2. #2
    mattwestm
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    That's the problem with LE these days. They all have "my understanding of the law is...". There should not be an individual understanding of the law. It should be a statewide consensus. Even if a sheep feels threatened by the sight of a gun, that is not grounds to arrest an OC'er. A holstered gun isn't harming anyone. Everyone has their own opinion of what is offensive to them. Some t-shirts offend me, but that doesn't give me the right to call the police and expect that the wearer be arrested.

    I would have told the officer "Oh, I won't OC again" or "I don't OC often" or just "Thanks for the insight". You obviously can't change his opinion of OC and how he chooses to enforce GATTTOP, just tell him what he wants to hear and go on about your day. We all know we are not doing anything illegal, so we shouldn't have to worry.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0tt View Post
    There has been a new law passed GATTTP, and if even one person saw me OC and was afraid he could arest me and seize my firearm and he didn't want that to happen to me (how nice of him)[esp when he added that he was a member of the NRA as well] so he recommended that I not OC anymore.
    You can't argue with an LEO on the street. Thank them for their suggestions, and then go about your business. If you were doing anything illegal, he would arrest or cite you. Since you weren't, his actions were edging dangerously close to harassment, especially since he flat-out lied about some "new law"...

    Be polite. Be quiet. Don't volunteer any information, opinions, or debate.

    But most importantly, at the first HINT of any possible interaction, hit "record" on your pocket voice recorder, and be sure to get the officer's name and badge number and you might even speak a date and time on the recorder before the conversation get's too far along.

    OC is 100% legal in NC in most locations. Any LEO who says differently is just voicing his own personal bias, and is giving you false information, and attempting to intimidate you under "color of law".

    Seeing as how there hasn't been a session of the NC General Assembly since this summer, and the next session doesn't open until January, I find it hard to believe there is any "new law about "GAttTotP" on the books, because if there were, it would have been a SERIOUS "hot topic" on this forum!

    First you should make a copy of the voice recording you have of the encounter (you DID make a voice recording of this, right?!?), and schedule a meeting with his Chief or Sheriff, and hand-carry it to the meeting, and have them explain what this "new law about GAttTotP" is. Have them quote the exact statute number, and show you a copy of this law in the North Carolina General Code.

    We've hashed the GAttTotP thing over and over again on this forum, quoting court cases and case law, and the FACT is that GAttTotP has NOTHING to do with whether or not other people are "a-feared" of your firearm. It is ENTIRELY predicated on the INTENT of the person carrying the firearm. If you are carrying for lawful reasons (self-defense included) then it doesn't matter how many frantic soccer moms call 911 to report a MWAG--you are NOT guilty of GAttTotP. Period.

    See "State vs Huntley" and "State vs. Kerner"

    http://www.guncite.com/court/state/25nc418.html

    http://www.guncite.com/court/state/107se222.html

    If his commander won't give you the statute and refuses to "correct" this officer, you need to let them know that you will be filing a formal complaint with their office, the DA and the State AG. You also should let him know that if you are arrested for lawfully OCing by any of his officers, that you will be filing a Federal 1983 Civil Rights suit with the FBI, for police harassment under Color of Law.

    You might want to print out copies of the "Huntley" and "Kerner" cases for the "commanders" edification...

    They CAN'T just make up the law based on personal bias, and when they DO, they need to be held publicly accountable for it.

    At least that is what I'd do...

    You may want to consult a lawyer too.

    And forchrissake, if you haven't bought a small digital voice recorder after thsi incident (and the other ones you have posted) you should go to freaking WalMart TODAY and buy one, and use it EVERY time you go out.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 11-28-2010 at 05:40 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  4. #4
    Regular Member Northerner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    They CAN'T just make up the law based on personal bias, and when they DO, they need to be held publicly accountable for it.
    Not Laws, but unfortunately, LEO can and do lie and make stuff up with the goal of getting one to incriminate themselves.

    IMO, In this case, I think he was harrassing you, if not trying to intimidate you.

    "Am I being detained?" "Am I free to go?"

  5. #5
    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    My phone has a voice recorder on it but I didn't even think to use it becuase the conversation went from cuasual to offical so quick, A mistake I will not make again.

    I did start to agree with him at the end and ended with everyones favorite words

    So, I am I being detained or am I free to go and pay for my coffee now?
    This is GREAT advice and I will print this out and study the cases in question. Thanks everyone!
    -----------------
    --SCOTT

    Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0tt View Post
    What hould I take from this and how can I handle this next time?
    You should take this from it. That LEO's are terrible at giving legal advice. They tend to make stuff up to keep folks from doing things that they don't like but are not illegal. I'll second the cases Dreamer linked to.

  7. #7
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    Got a lot of the "you shouldn't carry like that, it just causes problems..." blah blah when I was arrested. Not only will they give you their opinion as legal advice, they will also use it to charge you. Trust me.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0tt View Post
    My phone has a voice recorder on it but I didn't even think to use it becuase the conversation went from cuasual to offical so quick, A mistake I will not make again.

    There is NO SUCH THING as a "casual conversation" with an LEO.

    I have several family members who are LEOs (cousins, nephew) and although I love and respect them, I'm always on my guard when around them.

    You need to understand that "fishing" is the primary job of LEOs these days--not enforcing the law, not investigating crimes, not catching real bad guys--fishing. Poking, prodding, and manipulating everyday social interactions to try and get every person with whom they interact to admit to doing something questionable.

    They are being trained that way at the academies, and by the Feds. There is a pervasive attitude in LE onthe Federal level that it is an "us vs. them" situation, and "us" s anyone with a badge, and "them" isn't simply the 1 or 2% of the population that is actally engaging in REAL criminal activity--it's EVERYONE.

    They are being trained that EVERYONE is a potential criminal, or terrorist, or cop-killer, or drug smuggler. I mean how many times do you hear that "every time we pull someone over, our lives are in danger" BS. NO, NO, NO... Every time an LEO pulls over a CRIMINAL, his life MAY be in danger. If it's a law-abiding citizen, then there is no more risk for his life than if he were sitting in his living room...

    The Feds are trying to establish an attitude among local LEOs that the entire population is their enemy--that they are NOT public servants but rather, that they are some sort of anointed "keepers of the Order". It's a sad, sick state of affairs. The whole "officer safety" argument for mistreating, abusing, and constitutionally violating citizens at every available opportunity is a "straw man", and is nothing more than a program of "dog training" to get the populace to accept this sort of treatment without questioning it.

    We should be fighting this egregiously confrontational mentality being handed down to our "Peace Officers" from the Feds. We need to use every bad interaction that arises as an opportunity to educate our LEAs that we will not tolerate color-of-law abuse of power, fishing expeditions, false statements, and officers flat-out lying about the law.

    If they don't know the law, they shouldn't be cops, and they most certainly shouldn't be dispensing legal advice. The act of dispensing legal advice under the color of being qualified to do so is a crime in NC. Any cop pretending to be qualified to give you legal advice should be reported to the NC State Bar Association as well as the NC DOJ and the AG's office, and the letter should include a copy of your voice recording of the incident.

    http://lre.ncbar.org/

    NC Bar Association
    PO Box 3688
    Cary, NC 27519

    8000 Weston Parkway
    Cary, NC 27513

    Tel: (919) 677-0561
    Last edited by Dreamer; 11-29-2010 at 10:48 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    There is NO SUCH THING as a "casual conversation" with an LEO.
    I've learned this over the years. When I first started carrying a weapon, I would happily engage in conversation with an LEO over why I feel I'm justified to carry it or what have you.

    But I'm the complete opposite of that now. I will be very polite, but I'm not going to waste the energy on one syllable more than is necessary to end the conversation and be on my way.
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northerner View Post
    Not Laws, but unfortunately, LEO can and do lie and make stuff up with the goal of getting one to incriminate themselves.
    Exactly. The "conversation" is not even close to being on a level playing field. They can lie to you with no consequence, and if you lie to them you can end up stepping in some sh#t. But nothing bad can come from keeping your mouth shut.

    I don't answer the "where ya coming from, or where ya going" questions during a traffic stop either. Most people think that's rude. I wouldn't answer the same question coming from any other stranger's mouth, so why would I play the let's go fishing game with a cop?
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post

    I don't answer the "where ya coming from, or where ya going" questions during a traffic stop either. Most people think that's rude. I wouldn't answer the same question coming from any other stranger's mouth,
    I do the same except I point behind me as my destination and in front as my origin... "do you know how fast you were going?" yup... my heart rate was 70bpm but now its 67bpm... ? was my speed not the vehicles
    Last edited by muccione; 12-01-2010 at 09:22 PM.

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    Regular Member dedeye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northerner View Post
    Not Laws, but unfortunately, LEO can and do lie and make stuff up with the goal of getting one to incriminate themselves.

    IMO, In this case, I think he was harrassing you, if not trying to intimidate you.

    "Am I being detained?" "Am I free to go?"
    Ok, So I'm new to this forum and new to OCing and CCing, but i keep hearing about this voice recorder, is there a particular kind i should get, cause as i can tell, it could be the thing that keeps me outta jail! Bring On OpenCarry in Texas!

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Wait a minute....

    Isn't the Cop OCing? According to his own words, he just advised himself not to do that....

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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    If you have a smartphone, you can use Qik (free app). It allows you to record audio and video and streams it to an online site so even if they confiscate your phone, you still have you evidence.


    John

    Quote Originally Posted by dedeye View Post
    Ok, So I'm new to this forum and new to OCing and CCing, but i keep hearing about this voice recorder, is there a particular kind i should get, cause as i can tell, it could be the thing that keeps me outta jail! Bring On OpenCarry in Texas!

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    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedeye View Post
    Ok, So I'm new to this forum and new to OCing and CCing, but i keep hearing about this voice recorder, is there a particular kind i should get, cause as i can tell, it could be the thing that keeps me outta jail! Bring On OpenCarry in Texas!
    The iPhone has a built in recorder, and I believe just about every smart phone has a 'memo' app that can be left on.

    There are also several aftermarket options that are specifically meant to be recorders, like the digital memo takers, etc etc.

    The important thing though, is to make sure you live in a state that is single party consent (I believe there are 11 that are two party consent - I more than likely am wrong though). If you live in a single party consent, then only one person needs to consent to being recorded (in this case, you).
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  16. #16
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
    If you have a smartphone, you can use Qik (free app). It allows you to record audio and video and streams it to an online site so even if they confiscate your phone, you still have you evidence.

    Unless you have an iPhone, in which case Qik will probably freeze it up, and render it usless until you do a complete "system restore" from iTunes. Something about the iPhone port of Qik is just EVIL, and the bugs still hadn't been worked out when I downloaded it a few months ago. It took e two days to get my iPhone right after installing Qik...

    I use "Ustream". It does the same thing--live streaming uploads of audio and video to a central server. It works fine, if you have good signal.

    http://www.ustream.tv/mobile
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  17. #17
    Regular Member Sc0tt's Avatar
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    Even if you dont have a smart phone most phones can record audio, goto the security features and set a password and turn on the "Power on Lock" so before they seize your phone or as soon as you think you are about to be arrested Turn the phone OFF, they will turn it back on hoping to delete anything on it only to find out they cant do anything without the unlock code.
    -----------------
    --SCOTT

    Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum

    "A government that is big enough to give you everything you need is beg enough to take everything you have, the course of history shows that as government incresses - liberty decreases."


    LEGAL NOTICE: I am not a lawyer, no content in the above post should considered legal advice

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sc0tt View Post
    Turn the phone OFF, they will turn it back on hoping to delete anything on it only to find out they cant do anything without the unlock code.

    At which point, your phone may very likely take an "accidental" tumble into the nearest mud puddle or pitcher of nearby beverage. Or may "accidentally" be dropped and stepped on or run over by a cruiser...

    I don't mean nothing by that... I'm just sayin'...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
    If you have a smartphone, you can use Qik (free app). It allows you to record audio and video and streams it to an online site so even if they confiscate your phone, you still have you evidence.


    John
    Actually, no, you don't. It has a convenient and conspicuous 'delete' button. I considered the same thing on my Droid until I realized it shouts out how to destroy the evidence.

  20. #20
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    I'm hoping if it comes to that, I can just change the folder I'm recording in fast enough. Though I really doubt it would come to that, as we've clearly crossed into intentional abuse/corruption at that point.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member Coniferous's Avatar
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    Time to start looking for a voice recorder, or getting into the habit of starting the one on the iphone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    At which point, your phone may very likely take an "accidental" tumble into the nearest mud puddle or pitcher of nearby beverage. Or may "accidentally" be dropped and stepped on or run over by a cruiser...

    I don't mean nothing by that... I'm just sayin'...

    I hear that...

    I guess its a good thing I got a water proof phone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    Time to start looking for a voice recorder, or getting into the habit of starting the one on the iphone.
    I just bought a Sony from Walmart today, So far I like it.

    $59.99 and it comes with the cable and the disk to transfer your recording to your computer.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    Wait a minute....

    Isn't the Cop OCing? According to his own words, he just advised himself not to do that....
    Wait a minute...

    Isn't the COP offering Legal advise which is a crime to do UNLESS ONE IS ACTUALLY A LAWYER WHO HAS PASSED THE BAR EXAM?

  25. #25
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    It would seem so. Like most cops, this one seemed to want to offer his advice as if only he was the sole authority and keeper of legal knowledge on the scene.

    Yes, that's a very broad and general comment, but who here can say it's not the case?

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