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Thread: Black Friday OC, Walmart & Target

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Black Friday OC, Walmart & Target

    Hi all,

    I'm from Oregon, and I do have an Oregon CHL, but I don't have a Washington CPL.
    While I am very familiar with Oregon's laws, not so much with Washington's (I did review the WA pamphlet).

    On Black Friday, I drove up to Longview, WA to do some shopping with my girls (13 & 8 yrs old) in the afternoon. There is no way I would brave the crowds in the morning even armed, without a flack vest & helmet.

    Anyway, I OC in Oregon with my Beretta in a retention Serpa, drove up highway 30, stopped before crossing into Washington to unload and store my sidearm in the glove compartment (locked), ammo in the mag in my pocket. Went across the bridge into Washington and went to Walmart (finding that they had moved since the last time I was there).

    So, we went to Target first. After parking I retrieved my pistol, but I wasn't sure if Washington had "unloaded" OC exceptions to the preemption like some Oregon cities, so to play it safe I carried UOC in Target, spent about an hour and bought a few items. I had no problems, no encounters, just a few looks, but no "dirty" looks.

    Re-secured unloaded in the locked glove compartment and tracked down Walmart near Home Depot. Same thing, carried UOC for about an hour in Walmart. Again, no problems at all.

    Re-secured again and headed home. After crossing the bridge into Oregon, stopped and retrieved my sidearm, loaded it, and carried it in the holster during the drive back.

    So... did I follow all the laws in Washington or did I miss something? Can I OC loaded in Longview? Did I secure it correctly in my vehicle while driving in Washington? I'm open to comments & corrections.

    So for an afternoon of shopping I had to handle my weapon outside of the holster 6 times counting 1 unload & 1 reload. Guess I'm gonna have to get a Washington CPL. Sure would be nice when the 2A is followed by all states equally and all the carry rules are uniform, luckily I don't travel into WA much.

    Anyone else OC during Black Friday, and if so, how did it go?

  2. #2
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    You did fine.

    You are allowed to OC loaded in this state, you just cannot while in a vehicle. That includes ferries, busses, cars, etc. When in the vehicle, you cannot have the firearm loaded or concealed on your person UNLESS you have a CPL. When you got back in your vehicle, all you really needed to do was unload your gun and place it in the open. You could have even just hit the mag release and set the magazine next to you while driving and still have your gun holstered like normal, as long as there wasn't 1 in the chamber.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

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    So your loaded mag can be literally right next to your gun, and you're still within the law?

  4. #4
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    So your loaded mag can be literally right next to your gun, and you're still within the law?
    As long as there are no bullets in the gun and the magazine is not in the gun, yes.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    As long as there are no bullets in the gun and the magazine is not in the gun, yes.

    Up to AND including the mag (or gun) being duck-taped to your forehead. Perfectly legal.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    You did fine.

    You are allowed to OC loaded in this state, you just cannot while in a vehicle. That includes ferries, busses, cars, etc. When in the vehicle, you cannot have the firearm loaded or concealed on your person UNLESS you have a CPL. When you got back in your vehicle, all you really needed to do was unload your gun and place it in the open. You could have even just hit the mag release and set the magazine next to you while driving and still have your gun holstered like normal, as long as there wasn't 1 in the chamber.
    Correction to this: it does not include ferries if you are just on the ferry and not in a car - the ferries are considered part of the highway system.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Next time, carry loaded, lol. This isn't Kalifornia.
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

    Shooters before hooters.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Correction to this: it does not include ferries if you are just on the ferry and not in a car - the ferries are considered part of the highway system.
    ..and the ferry is not a 'vehicle' that rides on that 'highway'?

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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Correction to this: it does not include ferries if you are just on the ferry and not in a car - the ferries are considered part of the highway system.
    I have always seen the ferries as a Motor Vehicle. I have never seen anything that excludes them from this rule. Do you have anything that says that it isn't a motor vehicle? I'd rather err on the side of caution until I see something that proves that it is or isn't considered a motor vehicle.
    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Psalms 23:4

    "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Benjamin Franklin

    “It’s always open season on criminals in Mason County, and there’s no bag limit.” Sen. Tim Sheldon (D)

    Molōn labe!

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    ..and the ferry is not a 'vehicle' that rides on that 'highway'?
    No, it's not. The ferry is the highway, as the cars travel on it, just like they travel on a road.

    Tho in all honesty, it probably would take a court case to get a firm legal standing on the matter.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summ...2618&year=1994

    This is the bill where all ferries were added to the state highway system. For example:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_R...39_(Washington)
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    I have always seen the ferries as a Motor Vehicle. I have never seen anything that excludes them from this rule. Do you have anything that says that it isn't a motor vehicle? I'd rather err on the side of caution until I see something that proves that it is or isn't considered a motor vehicle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    No, it's not. The ferry is the highway, as the cars travel on it, just like they travel on a road.

    Tho in all honesty, it probably would take a court case to get a firm legal standing on the matter.
    I love it when I get to watch people try and "pick fly poop out a bowl of pepper".

    Since when does a marine vessel become a motor vehicle?
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    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summ...2618&year=1994

    This is the bill where all ferries were added to the state highway system. For example:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_R...39_(Washington)
    Actually, if you read the bill, it added the ferry routes to the state highway system. I will continue to consider the ferries themselves as vehicles that travel upon those routes, just as my truck travels on the other highways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    FOPA is 18 USC 926a and is meant to offer protection in gun restrictive states such as New York.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...6---A000-.html
    Of course "meant" is the operative word. NY state routinely charges people for transporting firearms through the state, even when appropriately stored. I believe there is currently a lawsuit pending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    RCW 47.60.017
    State ferry system a public mass transportation system.
    The legislature finds and declares that the state ferry system is a public mass transportation system.

    Can you carry a loaded handgun on a mass transportation system without a CPL?

    My interpretation would be that the ferry ROUTE is part of the highway system, and the ferry itself is a public mass transportation VEHICLE that travels on that route. How can you have a public mass transportation system without vehicles to carry the public mass?
    Problem, under http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.a....080&full=true
    it says "From the state ferry terminal at Port Townsend via the state ferry system northeasterly to the state ferry terminal at Keystone; also"

    The highway is considered as being "via the ferry system" - wherever the ferry goes, so the highway is. I'd love legal clarification, because it seems the law is trying to have it both ways.

    Edit: see this old thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=ferry+highway
    Last edited by Tawnos; 11-29-2010 at 08:40 PM.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Just use .060

    just be going hiking and using the Ferry to get there and you fall under the exception in .060.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Then why is "ferry" not included in the definition of highway?

    RCW 47.04.010
    Definitions.

    The following words and phrases, wherever used in this title, shall have the meaning as in this section ascribed to them, unless where used the context thereof shall clearly indicate to the contrary or unless otherwise defined in the chapter of which they are a part:



    If a ferry was a highway wouldn't the definition be:
    "Highway." Every way, lane, road, street, boulevard, and every way or place or ferry....
    Except it is. The part of the ferry you drive upon is a road.

    Under 47.04.020, you get "All public highways in the state of Washington, or portions thereof, outside incorporated cities and towns shall be divided and classified as state highways and county roads. All state highways and branches thereof shall be established by the legislature of the state of Washington by appropriate general location and termini. Any prior distinctions between highways as primary or secondary are hereby abolished. All powers granted to, or duties imposed upon, the department with regard to either primary or secondary state highways shall be construed to relate to all state highways. Whenever these terms are used, either jointly or independently, each shall be construed to include all state highways. All public highways in the state of Washington, or portions thereof, outside incorporated cities and towns, not established as state highways, are hereby declared to be county roads."

    Because the state legislature set up the ferry system as part of the highway, and the part of the ferry you drive onto is a road, you are on "the highway" when on a ferry. Dave Workman's guide to gun rights & such says pretty much the same.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    And when I walk on the ferry and never walk on the section that the cars go on, but only the walkway to the passenger area....am I on the road?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    And when I walk on the ferry and never walk on the section that the cars go on, but only the walkway to the passenger area....am I on the road?
    From what I have read in Dave Workman's book, the ferry system is considered part of the highway system. Why would it matter if you drove on the "highway" or walked?
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    And when I walk on the ferry and never walk on the section that the cars go on, but only the walkway to the passenger area....am I on the road?
    Sidewalk

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    Sidewalk
    So therefore open carry would require no CPL while on the ferry?
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    I don't know, Gogo; you are usually much more informed than I am on such topics. But it does bring up some interesting questions. I think the state needs to clarify what is and is not legal on the ferries as far as firearms go. We all know we need a CPL to carry loaded in our vehicles, but, as you brought up, what about walking on the ferry? What about riding Metro Transit? In either case, you are in a vehicle, but a public one, not a private one. Perhaps the state AG would know.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    I don't know, Gogo; you are usually much more informed than I am on such topics. But it does bring up some interesting questions. I think the state needs to clarify what is and is not legal on the ferries as far as firearms go. We all know we need a CPL to carry loaded in our vehicles, but, as you brought up, what about walking on the ferry? What about riding Metro Transit? In either case, you are in a vehicle, but a public one, not a private one. Perhaps the state AG would know.
    From the FAQ thread.

    3) Can I open carry on a Bus, Train, Ferry, Personal Auto, Motorcycle or Bicycle? (RCW 9.91.025) The right to carry a gun or ammunition in a fashion is not otherwise prohibited by law on a MUNICIPAL TRANSIT VEHICLE (Greyhound /Amtrak is not a municipal transit vehicle). Busses, Trains & the Ferries are considered vehicles in Washington. You may carry loaded either openly or concealed in or on any vehicle if you possess a CPL (RCW 9.41.050 (2a)).

    I only ask the question because it is contrary to this FAQ and poses an interesting concern. I have and carry my CPL with me, so there is no worry for me.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    And when I walk on the ferry and never walk on the section that the cars go on, but only the walkway to the passenger area....am I on the road?
    Nah, you're just on the Sidewalk.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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