• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Black Friday OC, Walmart & Target

R

Ruby

Regular Member
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
1,201
Location
Renton, Washington, USA
I don't know, Gogo; you are usually much more informed than I am on such topics. But it does bring up some interesting questions. I think the state needs to clarify what is and is not legal on the ferries as far as firearms go. We all know we need a CPL to carry loaded in our vehicles, but, as you brought up, what about walking on the ferry? What about riding Metro Transit? In either case, you are in a vehicle, but a public one, not a private one. Perhaps the state AG would know.
 
gogodawgs

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Ruby said:
I don't know, Gogo; you are usually much more informed than I am on such topics. But it does bring up some interesting questions. I think the state needs to clarify what is and is not legal on the ferries as far as firearms go. We all know we need a CPL to carry loaded in our vehicles, but, as you brought up, what about walking on the ferry? What about riding Metro Transit? In either case, you are in a vehicle, but a public one, not a private one. Perhaps the state AG would know.
Click to expand...

From the FAQ thread.

3) Can I open carry on a Bus, Train, Ferry, Personal Auto, Motorcycle or Bicycle? (RCW 9.91.025) The right to carry a gun or ammunition in a fashion is not otherwise prohibited by law on a MUNICIPAL TRANSIT VEHICLE (Greyhound /Amtrak is not a municipal transit vehicle). Busses, Trains & the Ferries are considered vehicles in Washington. You may carry loaded either openly or concealed in or on any vehicle if you possess a CPL (RCW 9.41.050 (2a)).
Click to expand...

I only ask the question because it is contrary to this FAQ and poses an interesting concern. I have and carry my CPL with me, so there is no worry for me.
 
xxx.jakk.xxx

xxx.jakk.xxx

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
467
i just got a respone from the ferry system on this question. when i get home i will post the e-mails.

the service rep said that ferries are part of thehighway, not vehicles. she wasn't he most informed, though. she said that yu can only carry in a vehile and with a license. i let her know aout preemption andsuch.
 
amlevin

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
xxx.jakk.xxx said:
i just got a respone from the ferry system on this question. when i get home i will post the e-mails.

the service rep said that ferries are part of thehighway, not vehicles. she wasn't he most informed, though. she said that yu can only carry in a vehile and with a license. i let her know aout preemption andsuch.
Click to expand...

There you have it. They're not vehicles. A government "agent" said so.
 
amlevin

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
xxx.jakk.xxx said:
i just got a respone from the ferry system on this question. when i get home i will post the e-mails.

the service rep said that ferries are part of thehighway, not vehicles. she wasn't he most informed, though. she said that yu can only carry in a vehile and with a license. i let her know aout preemption andsuch.
Click to expand...

There you have it. They're not vehicles. A government "agent" said so. Keep the e-mails, that way she can be subpoenaed if you ever go to court over the issue.
 
4

.45ACPaddy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
999
Location
Lakewood, WA
xxx.jakk.xxx said:
i just got a respone from the ferry system on this question. when i get home i will post the e-mails.

the service rep said that ferries are part of thehighway, not vehicles. she wasn't he most informed, though. she said that yu can only carry in a vehile and with a license. i let her know aout preemption andsuch.
Click to expand...

Let her know you can only carry loaded and/or concealed in a vehicle with a license. By vehicle I assume she meant your car that you drive onto the ferry.
 
xxx.jakk.xxx

xxx.jakk.xxx

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
467
K, I'm finally home and I can post my e-mails.

Me said:
Hello, I and some associates were having a conversation and something
came up regarding the ferry that we could not agree upon. We were
discussing whether, by Washington State Law, if the Ferry itself is
considered part of the highway system or a vehicle that travels upon the
highway.

This was brought up because of RCW 9.41.050 (2)(a) "A person shall not
carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a
license to carry a concealed pistol".

Without a definite answer, we cannot determine if the carry of a loaded
firearm on the ferry without a WA CPL is legal or not and restricts the
carry by many people.

Thank you for any help.

Kenny
Click to expand...

Linda Lacombe said:
Kenny,
Thanks for taking the time to write. The Washington State Ferries are a
continuation of the highway system and are frequently referred to as the
Washington state marine highways. Many of the routes have or continue
the highway numbers that lead to the terminals as if they continue
across the water. It is acceptable to carry a pistol or any gun onto the
ferry, provided the passenger has a license to carry the weapon, and the
weapon remains inside the passenger vehicle at all times. The weapon may
not be brought into the passenger cabin. Should someone need to
transport a legal weapon onboard a WSF vessel, they must do so in a
vehicle and be prepared to show a valid license to the Washington State
Patrol.

I hope this answers your question. If you have further questions, please
do not hesitate to write or call.
Linda Lacombe
Customer Service
Washington State Ferries
206-515-3635
Click to expand...

Me said:
My question was actually only about if the ferry itself was considered a highway or a vehicle on the highway and i believe you answered that. As to the legality of carrying aboard the vessel, as a state funded mass transit you may not be more restrictive in firearm rules than the laws of the state, so carry on th passenger deck i completely legal.

Thank you for the information and i hope that you have a great day. =)

Kenny.

Ps: i am sorry for any grammatical errors. I am on a mobile phone that does not have the best typing capabilities.
Click to expand...


I have not received a response to let me know if they are going to follow the laws or not, but I wouldn't worry about them trying to say that it's against the law since we have previous posts discussing whether or not Ferries are covered under preemption.
 
TechnoWeenie

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=468-34-110

Definition of terms.

Unless otherwise stated, words and phrases used herein shall have the following meaning:

(1) Highway - A general term denoting a street, road or public way for purposes of vehicular travel, including the entire area within the right of way.

(2) Conventional highway - An arterial highway without access control.

(3) Limited access highway - A highway upon which the rights to ingress and egress, light, view and air are controlled by law.


--------------------------------------------------
RCW 46.04.197 - Highway.

Highway means the entire width between the boundary lines of every way publicly maintained when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel.

RCW 46.04.500 Definition of "Roadway."

"Roadway" means that portion of a highway improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular travel, exclusive of the sidewalk or shoulder even though such sidewalk or shoulder is used by persons riding bicycles. In the event a highway includes two or more separated roadways, the term "roadway" shall refer to any such roadway separately but shall not refer to all such roadways collectively.

RCW 46.04.670 "Vehicle."

"Vehicle" includes every device capable of being moved upon a public highway and in, upon, or by which any persons or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a public highway, including bicycles. The term does not include devices other than bicycles moved by human or animal power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks. Mopeds shall not be considered vehicles or motor vehicles for the purposes of chapter 46.70 RCW. Bicycles shall not be considered vehicles for the purposes of chapter 46.12, 46.16, or 46.70 RCW.

------------------------------------



So there you go.

The ferry is part of the highway, and the ferry is moving on it, since it's moving on it, it's a vehicle.
 
T

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
TechnoWeenie said:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=468-34-110

Definition of terms.

Unless otherwise stated, words and phrases used herein shall have the following meaning:

(1) Highway - A general term denoting a street, road or public way for purposes of vehicular travel, including the entire area within the right of way.

(2) Conventional highway - An arterial highway without access control.

(3) Limited access highway - A highway upon which the rights to ingress and egress, light, view and air are controlled by law.


--------------------------------------------------
RCW 46.04.197 - Highway.

Highway means the entire width between the boundary lines of every way publicly maintained when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel.

RCW 46.04.500 Definition of "Roadway."

"Roadway" means that portion of a highway improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular travel, exclusive of the sidewalk or shoulder even though such sidewalk or shoulder is used by persons riding bicycles. In the event a highway includes two or more separated roadways, the term "roadway" shall refer to any such roadway separately but shall not refer to all such roadways collectively.

RCW 46.04.670 "Vehicle."

"Vehicle" includes every device capable of being moved upon a public highway and in, upon, or by which any persons or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a public highway, including bicycles. The term does not include devices other than bicycles moved by human or animal power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks. Mopeds shall not be considered vehicles or motor vehicles for the purposes of chapter 46.70 RCW. Bicycles shall not be considered vehicles for the purposes of chapter 46.12, 46.16, or 46.70 RCW.

------------------------------------



So there you go.

The ferry is part of the highway, and the ferry is moving on it, since it's moving on it, it's a vehicle.
Click to expand...

Alternatively, the ferry is part of the highway, and thus the highway moves wherever the ferry goes. A vehicle traveling upon the highway would be your car driving on the ferry, but not the ferry itself. It makes no sense for the ferry to both be a part of the highway and a vehicle on the highway. However, I will agree this is vague and in dire need of clarification (alternatively, remove the stupid "CPL in vehicle" rule and the question goes away).

The alternative argument, of course, is that the legislature only intended the CPL rules to apply "in" a vehicle, not "in or on", because when you're "on" a vehicle nothing is concealed. Since the legislature does use "in or on" in other language (e.g. 77.15.460), it seems to me there is a clear distinction. When you're "on" the ferry, you wouldn't need a CPL even if it were a vehicle, because you're not "in" it and therefore not concealed from outside view by virtue of your position.
 
gogodawgs

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Tawnos said:
Alternatively, the ferry is part of the highway, and thus the highway moves wherever the ferry goes. A vehicle traveling upon the highway would be your car driving on the ferry, but not the ferry itself. It makes no sense for the ferry to both be a part of the highway and a vehicle on the highway. However, I will agree this is vague and in dire need of clarification (alternatively, remove the stupid "CPL in vehicle" rule and the question goes away).

The alternative argument, of course, is that the legislature only intended the CPL rules to apply "in" a vehicle, not "in or on", because when you're "on" a vehicle nothing is concealed. Since the legislature does use "in or on" in other language (e.g. 77.15.460), it seems to me there is a clear distinction. When you're "on" the ferry, you wouldn't need a CPL even if it were a vehicle, because you're not "in" it and therefore not concealed from outside view by virtue of your position.
Click to expand...

Certainly it does qualify for both, you are looking through a limited prism.

When you drive your car on the freeway to the ferry and use the ferry as a highway to transport your car from point A to point B it is the highway.

Wehn you walk from downtown Seattle to downtown Bremerton you are being transported in a vehicle.
 
Metalhead47

Metalhead47

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
Tawnos said:
The alternative argument, of course, is that the legislature only intended the CPL rules to apply "in" a vehicle, not "in or on", because when you're "on" a vehicle nothing is concealed. Since the legislature does use "in or on" in other language (e.g. 77.15.460), it seems to me there is a clear distinction. When you're "on" the ferry, you wouldn't need a CPL even if it were a vehicle, because you're not "in" it and therefore not concealed from outside view by virtue of your position.
Click to expand...

Lemme confuse this one further then :banana:

Since you make the distinction between IN and ON, do the CPL rules apply when one is riding ON a motorcycle, since it's pretty darn hard to be IN one (believe me, I try :(), and therefore nothing is concealed?
 
Bill Starks

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
Metalhead47 said:
Lemme confuse this one further then :banana:

Since you make the distinction between IN and ON, do the CPL rules apply when one is riding ON a motorcycle, since it's pretty darn hard to be IN one (believe me, I try :(), and therefore nothing is concealed?
Click to expand...

RCW 9.41.050 - A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle.

Now since the ferry is a vessel which is used for transporting vehicles and passengers it is considered a vehicle and whether you walk on or drive on you'll still need a CPL.

One could say that by operating the motorcycle would be within the confines of it.
 
T

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
Metalhead47 said:
Lemme confuse this one further then :banana:

Since you make the distinction between IN and ON, do the CPL rules apply when one is riding ON a motorcycle, since it's pretty darn hard to be IN one (believe me, I try :(), and therefore nothing is concealed?
Click to expand...

I'd argue that no, they don't. I'd have to check the legislative history regarding the CPL "in a vehicle" law, but it seems odd to me that almost anywhere else in law they use the "in or on" wording, except there. I used 77.15.460 earlier because it also deals with loaded firearms:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.15.460

(a) The person carries, transports, conveys, possesses, or controls a rifle or shotgun in or on a motor vehicle; and

Note how it specifically calls out that you are not okay with carrying "on" a vehicle when it's a loaded rifle or shotgun.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top