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Thread: OT-No change in police behavior, procedures following officers deaths

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    OT-No change in police behavior, procedures following officers deaths

    Saw this and thought it followed a few other discussions, obviously opinions will vary.

    "For every officer-involved shooting in this state, there are scores of incidents where the officers would have been legally justified to use deadly force but chose not to," Pierce said. "The dilemma is we don't hear about the ones where they chose not to and there is a good outcome. We only hear about the ones where there was a bad outcome."

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...yndication=rss


    A little more information in this article.
    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/1...le-change.html
    Last edited by hrlysef; 11-28-2010 at 09:12 PM. Reason: ETA TNT link

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Two Things

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    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    Tom Brewster


    Spanaway
    +1 Also the press even put a spin to the story about how it's "ok" since it was so close to where 4 Lakewood Police were shot. We don't condone the shooting of officers, but we're NOT people like that. We're armed citizens exercising our right to be armed. They are exercising their right to make me reach for an air sick bag

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    They say there is no change but it sure does seem that there are more incidents where Deadly Force is employed when other options might well have been available.

    We have cases where:

    someone is shot 7 times in the back while in a car high-centered on a curb

    an inebriated person is shot 4 times while carrying what now appears to be a folded knife

    a person who is threatening suicide is "helped on his way" by officers when they lost sight of his gun

    These are only a few incidents but it sure does make wonder if there is a greater tendency to shoot subjects more often. Seattle seems to top the list of this type of incident.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Personally, I think many cops need to be reminded that they work for us citizens. I do believe most cops are good people who truly care about the public. But there has been enough bad apples lately to really tarnish thier behaviors.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayd1981 View Post
    Personally, I think many cops need to be reminded that they work for us citizens. I do believe most cops are good people who truly care about the public. But there has been enough bad apples lately to really tarnish thier behaviors.
    An LEO's job is to enforce the law. They are not there to be your friend, or the friendly officer handing out sticker badges to your kids, NOPE. They are there to respond to potential, actual or perceived law-breakers, typically after the fact...ticket, arrest, and send evidence to the prosecutor for possible charges.

    I was checking my daughter into a new school and like all schools these days, this one had a plain clothes officer there during school hours. We had been waiting for an hour-or-so, the person we were to meet with was running behind. My daughter and I walked to the cafeteria, it was lunchtime, to purchase a bag of chips. We were standing in line and I could feel someone standing really close to me. I turn around and it is the officer, his stance was with his legs far apart, his arms were folded and he was glaring at me. I said, "hello." He asked if I was a student there, and as much as I was flattered, I told him that I was the mother, checking my daughter into school, that it was her first day. He asked if I had been to the office, I said yes. My daughter, just from the conversation, started crying. She later told me that the man seemed very angry and she thought he was going to hurt both of us. I reminder her that it was an officer, but she was scared by his attitude and posture.

    The way he was standing and his arms folded, it could be perceived as threatening, authoritative, and I could see how that was scary to her to have a man standing there, so close to us, acting that way.

    I reminded her that most officers are great people with great intentions, but that this particular one is an authoritative POS.

    Later, when we got home, I had her read "What Every Body Is Saying." She read(e) the whole book in two days and loved it. I talked to her about body language and what it says about each and every one of us. And I told her that she needs to be more self-aware, and not show all of her faults like that officer did that day when he could have had a pleasant interaction with us, but chose to let pride and his position of power get in the way of him being a decent civil human being to others around him.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member CenTex's Avatar
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    I would have gotten the person's name and talked to the principal about how he approached you and his conduct. Tell the principal that his demeanor was so threatening that your daughter started crying. I would not let this go by.
    Last edited by CenTex; 11-29-2010 at 05:32 PM.
    The words of a tyrant: I never entertain opposing opinions. I am always right.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenTex View Post
    I would have gotten the person's name and talked to the principal about how he approached you and his conduct. Tell the principal that his demeanor was so threatening that your daughter started crying. I would not let this go by.

    I have been thinking about it and had thought about it. It was such a negative interaction that I was laying in bed last night thinking about it again. I realize though that I am merely just a citizen and he is an authority figure. He will have a good excuse as to why he was presenting himself in such a aggressive (I interpreted it as an act of aggression, well, and so did my daughter) way. I could say that maybe it was just in my head, but the impression it had on her and her response to his behavior confirms what I sensed even before I turned around, when he was standing right behind us.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    An LEO's job is to enforce the law.
    Would you cite the source for this thinking?

    Peace Officers cite you for breaking the law, Judges enforce the law with fines, jail time etc.

    The whole idea of a "Law Enforcement Officer" is heading down the path of tyranny giving the power of judgement to one person instead of the court.

    IMO of course.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post
    Would you cite the source for this thinking?

    Peace Officers cite you for breaking the law, Judges enforce the law with fines, jail time etc.

    The whole idea of a "Law Enforcement Officer" is heading down the path of tyranny giving the power of judgement to one person instead of the court.

    IMO of course.
    Sorry, I misspoke...they are there for investigative purposes and to send what they have discovered to the prosecutor. The judge does enforce law. I suppose they are enforcing the law by making sure it is followed, then again, wait, act on what they believe is unlawful actions and they gather evidence.

    Your opinion is right IMO of course.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 11-29-2010 at 08:07 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    And they do work for us but this has been lost many view themselves as the "authority" (a reason many want the job), when in fact the reverse is supposed to be true.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I have been thinking about it and had thought about it. It was such a negative interaction that I was laying in bed last night thinking about it again. I realize though that I am merely just a citizen and he is an authority figure. He will have a good excuse as to why he was presenting himself in such a aggressive (I interpreted it as an act of aggression, well, and so did my daughter) way. I could say that maybe it was just in my head, but the impression it had on her and her response to his behavior confirms what I sensed even before I turned around, when he was standing right behind us.
    One question keeps going through my mind. Does this school have a system that issues visitor's badges to those whoe are legitimately there either on business or with their children? You said you checked in but did the office give you anything to show others you were "OK"?

    Children regularly disappear from schools, either taken by estranged parents or just plain perverts. This school security person is there to guard against this as much as possible. You are "PO'd" because he challenged you and your presence there. What would you do if he wasn't there, or didn't challenge those who didn't have any ID or Visitor's Badge to show that they weren't there with less than honorable intent. I would guess that you would "want his @$$ on a roasting spit". Sometimes people in jobs like his just can't win.

    I'd be more concerned if he came off as a "Nazi" after you advised him that you were accompanying your child and had a legitimate reason to be there.

    My Daughter works for a School District and not only is School Security instructed to challenge anyone without a Visitors Badge, they are also to escort them to the office where their status is determined before they are allowed to leave or continue.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    An LEO's job is to enforce the law. They are not there to be your friend, or the friendly officer handing out sticker badges to your kids, NOPE. They are there to respond to potential, actual or perceived law-breakers, typically after the fact...ticket, arrest, and send evidence to the prosecutor for possible charges.

    I was checking my daughter into a new school and like all schools these days, this one had a plain clothes officer there during school hours. We had been waiting for an hour-or-so, the person we were to meet with was running behind. My daughter and I walked to the cafeteria, it was lunchtime, to purchase a bag of chips. We were standing in line and I could feel someone standing really close to me. I turn around and it is the officer, his stance was with his legs far apart, his arms were folded and he was glaring at me. I said, "hello." He asked if I was a student there, and as much as I was flattered
    Ahhh, so that officer was being paid to be a sarcastic, intimidating, disrespectful, A-hole. Grok.

    Society has a fundamental problem if "all schools" are patrolled by police officers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    +1 Also the press even put a spin to the story about how it's "ok" since it was so close to where 4 Lakewood Police were shot.
    If officers are experiencing PTSD, due to having co-workers murdered in Lakewood, to the point that is it impacting their decision making abilities... it should be excused, as they are relieved of duty to seek metal counseling.

    Having co-workers get murdered is not grounds to infringe on the Constitutional rights of other citizens.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 11-30-2010 at 01:43 PM.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    One question keeps going through my mind. Does this school have a system that issues visitor's badges to those whoe are legitimately there either on business or with their children? You said you checked in but did the office give you anything to show others you were "OK"?

    Children regularly disappear from schools, either taken by estranged parents or just plain perverts. This school security person is there to guard against this as much as possible. You are "PO'd" because he challenged you and your presence there. What would you do if he wasn't there, or didn't challenge those who didn't have any ID or Visitor's Badge to show that they weren't there with less than honorable intent. I would guess that you would "want his @$$ on a roasting spit". Sometimes people in jobs like his just can't win.

    I'd be more concerned if he came off as a "Nazi" after you advised him that you were accompanying your child and had a legitimate reason to be there.

    My Daughter works for a School District and not only is School Security instructed to challenge anyone without a Visitors Badge, they are also to escort them to the office where their status is determined before they are allowed to leave or continue.

    I checked into the office, well, her and I both did. They forgot to give me a little sticker with my name on it. He ended up not letting us buy a bag of chips, walk all the way to the other side of the school to get the sticky name-tag they forgot to gave me, then we walked back and purchased a bag a chips.

    The question I have is...I understand they want to know who is roaming around the school, thank goodness. But how does that make the kids any safer? The officer told me that "[at this school, we are concerned about the safety of our kids]." Showing my ID makes me no more or less safe.

    I don't want his ass on anything. What I want is for him to interact with me, especially when in the presence of my child, to interact in a less intimidating manner. he can win, he just needs to be a decent human being and think before his body language and his mouth stir fear in the children he is supposed to protect. What do they call that, personal responsibility for you own actions...if you are being a ***** and can't control your behavior, you should not be in a position where there are children.

    He is not a ***** because he is an LEO, he is a ***** because he is a man that clings to his badge, his gun, and most of all, his ego. I have met many excellent LEO's, this one has bad form.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I checked into the office, well, her and I both did. They forgot to give me a little sticker with my name on it. He ended up not letting us buy a bag of chips, walk all the way to the other side of the school to get the sticky name-tag they forgot to gave me, then we walked back and purchased a bag a chips.

    The question I have is...I understand they want to know who is roaming around the school, thank goodness. But how does that make the kids any safer? The officer told me that "[at this school, we are concerned about the safety of our kids]." Showing my ID makes me no more or less safe.

    I don't want his ass on anything. What I want is for him to interact with me, especially when in the presence of my child, to interact in a less intimidating manner. he can win, he just needs to be a decent human being and think before his body language and his mouth stir fear in the children he is supposed to protect. What do they call that, personal responsibility for you own actions...if you are being a ***** and can't control your behavior, you should not be in a position where there are children.

    He is not a ***** because he is an LEO, he is a ***** because he is a man that clings to his badge, his gun, and most of all, his ego. I have met many excellent LEO's, this one has bad form.
    Sounds to me that you are more upset with this person for doing his job. As for "body language", until he knows what he's dealing with why shouldn't he be ready for the worst. There was another side to this encounter and your last paragraph gives us some insight as to it.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Sounds to me that you are more upset with this person for doing his job. As for "body language", until he knows what he's dealing with why shouldn't he be ready for the worst. There was another side to this encounter and your last paragraph gives us some insight as to it.

    So i am not the only one who doesn't know how to read

    I am focused on his body language which was out of line. He doesn't have to change his approach, he can continue with his confrontational body language.

    I forgot that it is their job to be confrontational and rude...oh, and make teenage girls cry. And this whole time I thought they served a different purpose, thank you for clearing that up.

    Calling him a ***** and deducing why he seems to think it was appropriate to behave that way dos speak a lot to myself...it speaks to my ability to look at a persons behavior and determine, appropriately, whether they are friend or foe.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 11-30-2010 at 08:58 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayd1981 View Post
    Personally, I think many cops need to be reminded that they work for us citizens. I do believe most cops are good people who truly care about the public. But there has been enough bad apples lately to really tarnish thier behaviors.
    Oh thats funny i want to be there when you tell a cop seattle pd or otherwise that they work for the people....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead1055 View Post
    Oh thats funny i want to be there when you tell a cop seattle pd or otherwise that they work for the people....
    I have done that.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead1055 View Post
    Oh thats funny i want to be there when you tell a cop seattle pd or otherwise that they work for the people....
    And the looks on their faces are much like Rep. Charles Schumer when Suzanna Gratia-Hupp tells him, and the rest of congress, " The second amendment is not about duck hunting --- And I know I'm not going to make very many friends saying this --- but it's about our rights, all of our rights, to protect ourselves from all of you guys up there."

    He actually rolled his eyes at her at that comment. I wish I could find the full unedited video. On all of the YouTube videos out there they fade to black and his eye-roll is cleverly removed. (Even the "pro-gun" channels don't seem to have the full video.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    So i am not the only one who doesn't know how to read

    I am focused on his body language which was out of line. He doesn't have to change his approach, he can continue with his confrontational body language.

    I forgot that it is their job to be confrontational and rude...oh, and make teenage girls cry. And this whole time I thought they served a different purpose, thank you for clearing that up.

    Calling him a ***** and deducing why he seems to think it was appropriate to behave that way dos speak a lot to myself...it speaks to my ability to look at a persons behavior and determine, appropriately, whether they are friend or foe.
    Not to be an a$$, and I know I will come across as one, but it sounds to me like you need to grow a thicker skin and press on in life. Law Enforcement has changed a lot in just the last 10-15 years. The days of Andy Griffith and the friendly cop down the street are over and have been since the late 60s. As people have become more violent, the LE community has had to change and adapt because that is what the public at large expects.

    That school cop was doing exactly what you as a parent want him to do as a school cop, watch out for your kid's safety by identifying who you were and what you were doing there. School cops have possibly the hardest job in LE, having to deal with spoiled children and those who fight authority constantly. If he doesn't come off as a hard-a$$ then the same kids he has been tasked to protect will attempt to walk all over him, their parents too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    they are relieved of duty to seek metal counseling.
    Ah, yes, I can hear it now from the metal counselor:
    Hey you, with the bullets containing the element Pb: Get the lead out!
    And you, with the iron and carbon combined: Were you steeling?
    And you, LEO, do they call ya copper?
    If you don't get your act together, I'm gonna call the brass!

    Sorry, but this was SO ripe for bad puns! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    Ah, yes, I can hear it now from the metal counselor:

    Hey you, with the bullets containing the element Pb: Get the lead out!
    +1

    And you, with the iron and carbon combined: Were you steeling?
    -1 And you KNOW it

    And you, LEO, do they call ya copper?
    +1

    If you don't get your act together, I'm gonna call the brass!
    +1

    Sorry, but this was SO ripe for bad puns! LOL
    Don't apologize, you earned yourself +3. Don't spend it all in one place.
    Last edited by Deleted_User; 12-08-2010 at 01:45 AM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    Ah, yes, I can hear it now from the metal counselor:
    Hey you, with the bullets containing the element Pb: Get the lead out!
    And you, with the iron and carbon combined: Were you steeling?
    And you, LEO, do they call ya copper?
    If you don't get your act together, I'm gonna call the brass!

    Sorry, but this was SO ripe for bad puns! LOL
    Time for you to take a Powder with puns like that.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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