Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Open carry in Wichita, KS

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WICHITA, KS
    Posts
    4

    Open carry in Wichita, KS

    It seems to me extremely unclear on the laws concerning open carry in Wichita. One person says its legal to carry unloaded on my hip unconcealed. The other saying its flat out illegal to carry at all. Then what exactly are we calling "unloaded"? Can I have a magazine in the weapon with the chamber empty or can I have no magazine at all. My holster has a spot right on top to carry a mag. I would really appreciate some clarification before I walk into a quicktrip with a gun on my hip and get shot by WPD.
    Thanks, Tim

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Duncan, Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    67
    You can carry it open but it has to be unloaded meaning there cant be bullets in the magazine of the gun if the magazine is in the gun but you may carry a loaded magazine on you as long as its not in the gun. I have open carried in witchita before but be careful because from what i have heard the WPD has been known to use very aggressive tactics in dealing with people who open carry like putting you on the ground in cuffs and temporarily taking ur gun and running your gun and I.D.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WICHITA, KS
    Posts
    4
    I just got off the phone with a Wichita Cop and he hounded me about why I would want to openly carry a non loaded weapon. I said how about the 2nd amendmant? He told me yeah its legal to open carry unloaded but its not responsible. Blah blah blah. He could not explain why someone with a conceal license could not openly carry but can carry loaded concealed. He didnt seem too eager to debate the issue with me. He said if I do openly carry the cops are gonna come and have me at gun point so and so forthe. It kinda pisses me off that we as a people have become so scared of guns that if a normal civilian carries a gun its a bad guy but if its a cop hes a good guy. What are some other thoughts on this issue? Is it stupid you think to carry open and unloaded?
    Tim

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Duncan, Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    67
    When me and my friend came to witchita back in august and went to a open carry event i just OCed for the event since i couldnt OC loaded after that i just CC but my friend OCed everywhere that didnt have a no gun sign. Its just however you feel like carrying carry how you wanna carry i dont think its stupid to OC unloaded if you want to. Hopefully 1 day witchita will allow loaded OC.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WICHITA, KS
    Posts
    4
    Ok, so I had a conversation with the Attorney General of kansas today as well as with the Cheif of Police of Wichita PD. As well as the City prosecuter. All asked me the same question. Why would you want to carry an unloaded weapon? I said the 2nd ammendment! Plus it dont me long to have 1 in the chamber. Plus im poor and cant afford to pay my governemt 3-4 hundred dollars for a conceal license. And its kinda hard to tuck a .45 under my shirt.
    I was informed by state attorney general that kansas is a right to open carry state but some cities in kansas are not. I talked to the Chief of police of Wichita after I had found the Wichita municipal Code concerning weapons. He first told me that it was illegal to carry a weapon at all unless you have your conceal license. I said well take a look Municipal Code 5.88.010. After a brief pause. He said. "Well its legal to open carry a firearm un-loaded in the city of wichita, but why would you want to"?
    So at first he didnt even know the law then when corrected he start telling me that if i open carry I will get guns drawn on me and hand cuffed and waste everyones time.
    Its all a big crock of crap with these gun laws and everyone letting them take our rights away.
    I honestly dont want to get my conceal license cause I dont feel like i shoud have to pay for a freedom that my forefathers but in place. They are making it a "right" to be able to carry a weapon in self defense? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

    I will be carrying my un-loaded weapon on my hip everywhere I go until this crap gets solved. How many more rights are we gonna let the government take away from us!

    You can draw your gun on me! You can handcuff me! You can arrest me! And I hope that the police beat the **** out of me so I can get rich and buy more guns.

    Im tired of it and will not stand for it.
    This is the part that matters.
    Below is from the city of wichitas municapal code concerning weapons:





    Sec. 5.88.010. Unlawful use of weapons.
    (1) Unlawful use of a weapon is knowingly:


    (d) Carrying any pistol, revolver or other firearm concealed on one's person, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;
    (e) Carrying on one's person any unconcealed, loaded firearm, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;
    (f) Carrying in any vehicle under one's immediate control, while on property open to the public, any loaded firearm, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;
    (g) Carrying in any air, land or water vehicle an unloaded firearm that is not encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm;
    (h) Carrying a loaded or unloaded firearm in a courtroom or within City Hall;
    (i) Drawing a pistol, revolver, knife or any other deadly weapon upon any person.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Dahlgren, VA
    Posts
    2
    Am I correct in saying that you can OC in Wichita without a CCH? I would prefer to conceal carry but that doesn't seem like it will be an option for me so it's OC for now. I will be transferring duty stations, from Virginia to California, and I will get about a months leave to visit my parents. Also would anybody know if I can, or where to look up if I can, for Andover, Rose Hill, Derby, and Mulvane?

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by t_mhandyman View Post
    I just got off the phone with a Wichita Cop and he hounded me about why I would want to openly carry a non loaded weapon. I said how about the 2nd amendmant? He told me yeah its legal to open carry unloaded but its not responsible. Blah blah blah. He could not explain why someone with a conceal license could not openly carry but can carry loaded concealed. He didnt seem too eager to debate the issue with me. He said if I do openly carry the cops are gonna come and have me at gun point so and so forthe. It kinda pisses me off that we as a people have become so scared of guns that if a normal civilian carries a gun its a bad guy but if its a cop hes a good guy. What are some other thoughts on this issue? Is it stupid you think to carry open and unloaded?
    Tim
    I'm a little upset you took the time to call when others have already done the footwork for you on this matter, Tim.

    15 minutes before you posted, I had a very informative post in another thread for you.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1411216

    Quote Originally Posted by t_mhandyman View Post
    Ok, so I had a conversation with the Attorney General of kansas today as well as with the Cheif of Police of Wichita PD. As well as the City prosecuter. All asked me the same question. Why would you want to carry an unloaded weapon? I said the 2nd ammendment! Plus it dont me long to have 1 in the chamber. Plus im poor and cant afford to pay my governemt 3-4 hundred dollars for a conceal license.
    Respect due, but you're showing a great deal of ignorance, friend. A CCH license is an open carrier's best friend for a number of reasons, primarily that it allows you to open carry in your vehicle. Further, a CCH does not cost "3-4 hundred dollars". It's about 200 when all is said and done, excluding the fiery hoops you have to dance through.

    Quote Originally Posted by t_myhandyman
    I will be carrying my un-loaded weapon on my hip everywhere I go until this crap gets solved. How many more rights are we gonna let the government take away from us!

    You can draw your gun on me! You can handcuff me! You can arrest me! And I hope that the police beat the **** out of me so I can get rich and buy more guns.
    Again, all due respect, but this is exactly the wrong attitude to have. Going out there "with something to prove" is actually very detrimental to our cause here. We, as open carriers, need to be humble and informative. As is touted all through these forums, we are ambassadors for our cause.

    Yes, you are well within the law to carry your weapon unloaded in Wichita. Great. But you should be seeking to inform, not to "stick it to the man and get a fat paycheck" as it seems you want to do. Prior, I had been interested in meeting with you and introducing you to open carrying, but with an attitude like yours from your few posts, you seem like too much of a loose cannon for my tastes. Best of luck to you, and I certainly hope you avoid negative police encounters.

    Quote Originally Posted by BitFreakazoid View Post
    Am I correct in saying that you can OC in Wichita without a CCH?
    This is a question from ignorance, it seems, that stems a lot from misinformation.

    A CCH permit allows you, strictly, to CONCEAL A FIREARM. It in no way affects your ability to carry a weapon on your person openly outside a vehicle. Meaning you don't need a CCH permit to open carry (but it does help you look more credible, and will help for cold days which Wichita is known for, for the record). You only need a CCH permit to conceal your weapon, loaded or unloaded. Concealing your weapon on property other than your own or your fixed place of business(intentional or not) without a CCH license is a criminal offence.

    Quote Originally Posted by BitFreakazoid
    I would prefer to conceal carry but that doesn't seem like it will be an option for me so it's OC for now.
    If I may be so bold, what is preventing you from CC?

    Quote Originally Posted by BitFreakazoid
    I will be transferring duty stations, from Virginia to California, and I will get about a months leave to visit my parents. Also would anybody know if I can, or where to look up if I can, for Andover, Rose Hill, Derby, and Mulvane?
    First, see this thread (it IS outdated):
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-OC-Map-for-KS

    Derby uses the UPOC, which is short for the Uniform Public Offence Code. Many smaller towns use this, and it has no provisions restricting the open carry of loaded or unloaded firearms.

    I was unable to find anything else for any of the other towns you listed, but I'm fairly confident most of them use the UPOC. Call their respective city halls and find out.

    NOTE: A city or town that uses the UPOC does NOT permit you to openly carry/transport a firearm in your vehicle without a CCH permit.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Dahlgren, VA
    Posts
    2
    Thanks for the information.

    If I may be so bold, what is preventing you from CC?
    When I was originally trying to find out what I needed to do in order to get a license it looked like since I'm in the military I could skip having to pay for a class and just apply for a license. But in order to do that I had to have orders for Kansas, which I don't have but Kansas is my state of residence, still have my Kansas drivers license even.

    edit -
    NOTE: A city or town that uses the UPOC does NOT permit you to openly carry/transport a firearm in your vehicle without a CCH permit.
    What is the legal way to carry when in your vehicle?
    Last edited by BitFreakazoid; 12-01-2010 at 06:55 PM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by BitFreakazoid View Post
    What is the legal way to carry when in your vehicle?
    IANAL etc.

    The state-established legal way of carrying your weapon WITHOUT A CCH insofar as cities may be less restrictive but not more is that your handgun must be unloaded and "fully encased" OR in the boot (trunk) of your vehicle. A glovebox and/or center console is "hidden" and not encased. The weapon must be in a container separate of the vehicle. The original box (e.g. the box a Glock comes in) will suffice, but I would not recommend this as if you must leave your weapon in your vehicle for any extended period of time, it is easily accessible to thieves. There are very reasonably-priced gun vaults that have strong wires you can wrap around your seat that will make it nigh-impossible to steal without bolt cutters.

    Wichita's Municipal Code Section 5.88.010 regarding the unlawful use of weapons states the following in regard to the transportation of firearms in your vehicle in the city of Wichita:
    Quote Originally Posted by Section 5.88.010
    (f) Carrying in any vehicle under one's immediate control (Fuzzy Note: Immediate control means open/plain sight), while on property open to the public, any loaded firearm, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;
    (g) Carrying in any air, land or water vehicle an unloaded firearm that is not encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm;



    (6) Subsections 1(d), 1(f), and 1(g) shall not apply to:
    (a) Any person carrying a concealed weapon as authorized by K.S.A. 2008 Supp., 75-7c01 through K.S.A. 75-7c17, and amendments thereto (Fuzzy Note: KSA 2008 Supp., 75-7c01-c17 is the CCH permit provision, allowing you to conceal carry as well as -- as you can see here -- open carry in your vehicle).
    Meaning, in so many words:

    Get a CCH and you can carry how you want in your vehicle: loaded, unloaded, cased, or uncased. Without a CCH, it better be properly cased and unloaded. Period.
    Last edited by LordFuzzywig; 12-02-2010 at 02:53 AM. Reason: Oops! Grammar!

  10. #10
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426
    Quote Originally Posted by t_mhandyman View Post
    All asked me the same question. Why would you want to carry an unloaded weapon?
    Correct answer: I don't want to carry an unloaded weapon, but that's the only option legally available to me at this time if I want to exercise my right to self-defense. I hope an attacker allows me the extra time I'll need in order to load a magazine & get a round in the chamber.

    It doesn't make sense to me that someone can carry concealed & loaded, but if carrying unconcealed it has to be unloaded.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Correct answer: I don't want to carry an unloaded weapon, but that's the only option legally available to me at this time if I want to exercise my right to self-defense. I hope an attacker allows me the extra time I'll need in order to load a magazine & get a round in the chamber.
    Hah. Well played.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal
    It doesn't make sense to me that someone can carry concealed & loaded, but if carrying unconcealed it has to be unloaded.
    I have said the same thing. Unfortunately, the problem is convincing the government here that the CCH just isn't enough. If I accidentally display my loaded and concealed weapon reaching for my wallet or because it is windy, I've committed a crime.

    The most we can do is rally, protest, and call City Council members. I have considered placing a call to the Mayor as well. Backward laws. Meh.

    Wichita, Kansas: Out of sight, out of mind.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by BitFreakazoid View Post
    Am I correct in saying that you can OC in Wichita without a CCH? I would prefer to conceal carry but that doesn't seem like it will be an option for me so it's OC for now. I will be transferring duty stations, from Virginia to California, and I will get about a months leave to visit my parents. Also would anybody know if I can, or where to look up if I can, for Andover, Rose Hill, Derby, and Mulvane?

    I just spoke with Andover, Wichita and Sedgwick Co. LEO's
    As far as Andover goes it is illegal to OC in City Limits but not in Butler County. Wichita on the other hand just pointed the importance of UNLOADED OC, Sedgwick Co. Sheriffs didn't really know what all the ins & outs were of the new OC law.

    As some insight, Personally i like to give LEO's reality checks such as invoking my rights like not giving my ID or Name if i haven't broken any law or acted in any hostile way. If you are like me heres some good hints, When approached by a LEO start the conversation with I reserve the right of the of 5th amendment, Inform them that you will not give any consent for searches of your person or property including serial numbers. And if they try to use force you will not resist their actions. If all is done properly they have no right to do anything unless they see you as a threat. You don't not want to be considered to be a threat rather than knowledgeable.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    96
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtblack View Post
    I just spoke with Andover, Wichita and Sedgwick Co. LEO's
    As far as Andover goes it is illegal to OC in City Limits but not in Butler County. Wichita on the other hand just pointed the importance of UNLOADED OC, Sedgwick Co. Sheriffs didn't really know what all the ins & outs were of the new OC law.

    As some insight, Personally i like to give LEO's reality checks such as invoking my rights like not giving my ID or Name if i haven't broken any law or acted in any hostile way. If you are like me heres some good hints, When approached by a LEO start the conversation with I reserve the right of the of 5th amendment, Inform them that you will not give any consent for searches of your person or property including serial numbers. And if they try to use force you will not resist their actions. If all is done properly they have no right to do anything unless they see you as a threat. You don't not want to be considered to be a threat rather than knowledgeable.
    Mr Black, first :welcome: Second, this thread is old enough to be obsolete. as of August 2012, loaded open carry is now legal in Wichita. the change was published iirc in the last week of July.

    Posted on Sun, Jul. 29, 2012
    Group aims to reverse open-carry firearms law in Wichita
    By Bill Wilson
    The Wichita Eagle

    On Thursday, it became legal for the first time in decades to strap on a holster and a firearm in Wichita, carrying it openly without a permit.

    And today, a group of city officials and business owners are looking for a way to reverse that city ordinance.

    “I’m not going to live in Tombstone,” Wichita Vice Mayor Janet Miller said.

    The city’s new open carry laws are a classic case of a state mandate, city officials say: Wichita’s city firearms ordinance, which prohibited the open display of a loaded firearm, has been in conflict with – or in legal terms, pre-empting – a firearms statute passed by the Kansas Legislature for more than four years.

    Until now city ordinance has allowed people to carry a concealed weapon if they have a permit, but has prohibited people from wearing or carrying weapons in plain sight.

    Kansas Sen. Dick Kelsey, a gun advocate with a legislative endorsement from the National Rifle Association, chuckled at the furor.

    “We’re talking about a non-issue here,” Kelsey said. “We’re not headed back to Tombstone.”

    Kelsey doesn’t expect a proliferation of unconcealed weapons in Wichita. In fact, he said he’ll be surprised if he sees more than a few.

    “Ask the concealed carry permit holders how often they carry,” he said. “The answer is, they don’t very often. I have two sons with permits and they don’t carry often. Non-issue here.”

    The conflict was discovered a year ago by city officials, who asked Kansas Attorney General Derek Schmidt for an opinion whether the city can prohibit the carrying of unconcealed weapons under the 2007 state law.

    In December, Schmidt said no, said Sharon Dickgrafe, the deputy city attorney. So earlier this month, under an agenda item titled “unlawful use of weapons,” the Wichita City Council quietly and largely without discussion signed off on the new open carry law, saying its hands are tied by the 2007 law.

    And then some council members, upset that the city is bound by a state law they call too liberal on the gun issue, set about trying to figure out how to change it.

    “I think we need to go back and do two things,” council member Jeff Longwell said. “Be out of compliance and be more restrictive, which I believe we can be. Or do we lobby the state? There could be some of that.

    “We’ve got some questions to ask and figure out.”

    The change has upset some business owners, despite a clear state law and city ordinance that gives any shop operator the right to ban concealed and unconcealed weapons. Warren Theatres president Bill Warren is irate, and pledged this week that he will not allow anyone with an unconcealed gun in his theaters. He will, however, permit concealed carry permitted guns.

    The law change is no big deal at Wichita State University, where guns are outlawed on campus. It will have no affect on how the university administers athletic events, said Brad Pittman, the associate athletic director for facilities and operations.

    “Now, will people understand that? Maybe or maybe not,” Pittman said. “But if they show up with a gun to one of our events, we’re going to ask them to take it to their vehicle.”

    Even some gun shop owners are upset, saying unconcealed weapons could have a chilling effect on customer traffic there and at other businesses around town. While people have to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, there is no permit required to openly display a weapon.

    “My personal opinion – not for the store – is I’m not in favor of this at all,” said Donnie Holman, who manages the Bullet Stop, 2625 W. Pawnee. “No training whatsoever. Buy a gun, buy a holster, out the door without any experience. It’s a big mistake.”

    Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz agreed.

    “We don’t make the laws,” Stolz said. “We enforce them, and we work for the people. The council represents the people.

    “I don’t want to get into a Second Amendment debate here. We fully support it. But it’s how we empower and train people, and how we treat the Second Amendment that gets controversial.”

    Stolz said Holman is right: Unconcealed weapons will be perceived as a threat by much of the Wichita public.

    “There’s a huge difference between concealed and unconcealed,” Stolz said. “This puts the weapon in plain view in a threatening position for a normal person. In today’s society, it’s a threatening sight for people and law enforcement officers.”

    The latter is a huge concern to Stolz, who said the new open carry law will inevitably escalate confrontations that require a police response.

    “Put yourself in the shoes of an officer, a sheriff’s deputy, a Kansas Highway Patrol trooper,” he said. “You roll up on a call and you see a couple of people with guns drawn on each other and you’re coming in as (a response to) a general disturbance.

    “Officers are trained to protect life, and they see this happening and they don’t know who’s the good or bad guy. Yet they’re facing split-second decisions. It’s a recipe that is going to be extremely challenging for law enforcement.”

    Miller said she hopes the council will request a thorough review of its options to overturn open carry.

    “I don’t have any sense at all that this is what the public wants,” she said. “I’d hope we can find four votes on the bench to take another look at this.”

    Dickgrafe said the city’s policy is to comply with state laws. However, Schmidt’s opinion isn’t binding in a court, she said.

    “But certainly courts tend to give those heavy weight in analyzing the pre-emption issue,” she said.

    Nonetheless, Dickgrafe said her office could take a serious look at Longwell’s list of options.

    And maybe they should, Holman said.

    “People are going to be more apprehensive, no question about it,” he said. “People see a guy with a gun when they walk into a store, they’re not going in and they might not come back.”

    Why gun-toters would put themselves in that position escapes Holman.

    “What good reason do you have for someone to know you’ve got a gun?” he asked. “You’re making yourself a target. Why put more stress on the cops than they have already? They’re more on edge, and there’s a lot of that going on already.”
    Reach Bill Wilson at 316-268-6290 or bwilson@wichitaeagle.com.

    © 2012 Wichita Eagle and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.kansas.com

    Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/2012/07/27/v-p...#storylink=cpy
    I am not sure if this link will expire or not, but if you go to the Wichita.gov webpage, click on the on-demand minutes look at the 07-10-2012 meeting http://wichitaks.granicus.com/Minute...2&clip_id=1795 scroll down to item #3 and you will see the following,
    3. Unlawful Use of Weapons.


    Attachment: Delineated Ordinance


    Attachment: Ordinance No. 49-309


    Attachment: Agenda Report No. IV-3.


    Sharon Dickgrafe Law Department reviewed the item.


    Council Member O’ Donnell stated in regards to people with conceal and carry weapons; do they have to have their guns in a holster.

    Sharon Dickgrafe Law Department stated no.

    Council Member O’ Donnell stated they can have them in their cars and all of these guidelines do not apply to someone with a CCW.

    Sharon Dickgrafe Law Department stated that is correct. Stated the City’s ordinance specifically exempts from the vehicle requirements. Stated if you are carrying open you are really not carrying concealed so you are carrying differently from what the permit would allow you to do. Stated the ordinance does specifically carve out people with a carry and conceal license.

    Council Member O’ Donnell stated that is what he wanted to make sure based on his communication with the Law Department. Stated this really has to do with an average citizen and the way they would carry a gun around.

    Sharon Dickgrafe Law Department stated that is correct.


    Mayor Brewer inquired whether anyone from the audience wished to be heard.

    1) Deborah Sanders 2020 North Wellington Place stated she is concerned about the conceal and carry part that was mentioned by Council Member O’Donnell. Stated we do have a right to bear arms in this nation but there is a certain way you should carry them.


    Carl Brewer moved to place the ordinance on first reading and authorize the necessary signatures.
    Motion carried 6 to 0
    Pay particularly close attention to the link for the "Agenda Report No. IV-3" and read the legal analysis there.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •