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Thread: Ok, so the wife wants a new holster for Christmas.......

  1. #1
    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Ok, so the wife wants a new holster for Christmas.......

    She likes OWB cross draw and is looking to carry her Ruger P-94. Fitting a lady with a narrow waist and curves has not been easy. Anybody solved this problem? We tried a retention style paddle holster and she could not get a draw angle that allowed her to draw it. I had no issues with the holster, but I carry at 4 o'clock and do not have hips. Looking for anyone who has input and knowledge on the subject.

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    leather holster.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    You and your wife should both read this article about holsters for women. It may open up some options for consideration that you hadn't previously considered:

    http://corneredcat.com/Holster/straighttalk.aspx


    You may want to consider a Mitch Rosen TRV. It's a leather crossdraw SPECIALLY designed for women:

    http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_li...duct_line.html

    Or maybe the Ted Blocker "24XD Concealement Holster". Although not specifically designed for women, it is a spiffy leather cross-draw.

    http://www.tedblockerholsters.com/pr...6F4F389335BADA

    Good luck!
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Please don't take offense to this, it's the instructor and former LEO in me.

    You and your wife both need to consider getting away from cross-draw holsters, especially for OC. It's just way too easy for someone to walk up and grab your firearm in a manner that would easily allow them to point the muzzle at you. This comes up in my CCW classes all the time and once I have a holstered blue-gun on and use a student to demonstrate a BG, my students have the light bulbs turn on over their heads.

    That's not saying it's going to happen, but the possibility of a gun grab is always there when we carry, no matter the method we choose. It's amplified when one OC's with a cross-draw. Then there's the time delay to reach across the body, draw, go from muzzle rearward across the body to muzzle forward in front of the body, to target acquisition. When this part was demonstrated it was noticed that it took 2-4 seconds to get a shot off accurately when it should have taken 2 seconds or less...3 seconds or less for an attacker to cover just 21 feet.

    Of course, you can always train yourself to be quick, but can you train yourself to shoot ultra-close from a cross-draw? No, you can't...you wouldn't even get it unholstered in most cases inside 10 feet.

    If they were a smart choice then LEOs around the world would use them on a daily basis. Fact is they don't for obvious reasons.


    Great article Dreamer. I'm taking it to class Saturday.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 11-30-2010 at 10:35 PM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    You and your wife both need to consider getting away from cross-draw holsters, especially for OC. It's just way too easy for someone to walk up and grab your firearm in a manner that would easily allow them to point the muzzle at you.

    Please cite a SINGLE instance, in the history of OC by citizens in the 20th or 21st century, where this has happened, aside from the simulated fantasy land of your fee-based CC training classes...

    We'll wait...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-01-2010 at 11:04 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  6. #6
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    This comes up in my CCW classes all the time and once I have a holstered blue-gun on and use a student to demonstrate a BG, my students have the light bulbs turn on over their heads.

    I assume your classes are so that your students may qualify for a MO concealed carry endorsement, NOT so they can learn how to commit the Statutory Crime of CCW (Carrying a Concealed Weapon). As an instructor, you, of all people, should at least get the terminology for you own state's CC "permit" correct...

    CCW is a crime. It is NOT a "privilege", a "card", a "permit" or a "license" in ANY state of the USA. The ONLY place the term "CCW" is used in ANY state codes or statutes is to define a CRIME.

    Please, stop using this acronym to describe a lawful, legal mode of carry. I suppose I can excuse "citizens" for using this term, because it's been pounded into their heads by the gun press for 2 decades.

    But for an INSTRUCTOR to use this term is simply inexcusable...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Please cite a SINGLE instance, in the history of OC by citizens in the 20th or 21st century, where this has happened, aside from the simulated fantasy land of your fee-based CC training classes...

    We'll wait...
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I assume your classes are so that your students may qualify for a MO concealed carry endorsement, NOT so they can learn how to commit the Statutory Crime of CCW (Carrying a Concealed Weapon). As an instructor, you, of all people, should at least get the terminology for you own state's CC "permit" correct...

    CCW is a crime. It is NOT a "privilege", a "card", a "permit" or a "license" in ANY state of the USA. The ONLY place the term "CCW" is used in ANY state codes or statutes is to define a CRIME.

    Please, stop using this acronym to describe a lawful, legal mode of carry. I suppose I can excuse "citizens" for using this term, because it's been pounded into their heads by the gun press for 2 decades.

    But for an INSTRUCTOR to use this term is simply inexcusable...

    Well, I was warned that once I mentioned Concealed Carry on this board that the personal attacks would begin. I guess those folks were 100% correct. I was also told that folks on this board have no intention of reading full posts by folks and that appears to be correct as well. The bulk of the problem is the failure of the moderators/admin on this site to take care of business by kicking folks off the board who want to start being rude, inconsiderate, attacking, and the like.

    So I'll step outside my professionalism for a second and point out that you FAILED to read my entire post where I said...and I quote "not saying that's going to happen". You also FAILED by trying to put words into my posts that were not said as well as trying to indicate that I to learn something about the classes I teach (which students receive a State required certificate for), so please stop since your information is inflammatory, incorrect, and untrue to say the least. And seeing as how the endorsement from the DOR says...and I quote...."CCW Until (then the date of expiration)" then I guess the DOR also has it wrong...and seeing as how that was ordered by the State, then I guess the State also has it wrong. And yes, the statute says concealed carry endorsement, but it's a combination of the endorsement statute and the weapons violations statute...thus CCW or Carry Concealed Weapon in this State.

    Be courteous Dreamer and get out of your dream-world. We're all here for the same reasons so stop attacking someone who is pro-2A, pro-OC, and pro-CCW. After all, I even thanked YOU for posting the article.

    Now back to the professionalism. You're correct in that there has only been one gun-grab of late that hit the media that we're aware of, others may have gone unreported in the past, yet there are hundreds of these every year that involve LEOs. I attempt to illustrate to my students that the crossdraw puts you at a positional disadvantage and gives a bad-guy the ability to just walk up and grab your firearm with the muzzle already pointed in a proper direction to use it on you as the victim.

    So I'll reiterate something: An attacker can cover 21 feet (reactionary gap) in 3 seconds. From threat identification to draw to target acquisition to decision to shoot, the attacker will have closed the 21 foot reactionary gap and make you a victim if not be so close to put hands-on. With the muzzle pointed rearward in a crossdraw holster you become incapable of unholstering with the weak hand and getting on target with the attacker on you. If you've tried to reach across and the attacker manages to trap your arm between him/her and yourself, you're then left with just 1 arm (and your legs) to try to fight your way out....most people will not survive this.

    FBI statistics illustrate these facts:
    Up close and personal, 75% of attacks within 21 feet.
    They'll be violent....if they weren't, you wouldn't need your firearm.
    They'll be fast...3 seconds and the initial attack is over.
    Most violent crimes, burglaries, and others in the self-defense needed categories will be in low-light/no-light environments...making sights difficult to use.
    They WILL likely require multiple shots. One shot just won't get it done in most cases. (shotguns in the home may be an exception)
    Head shots stop the threat 100% of the time. Note that I did not say kill, I said stop, which could mean they are still alive and capable, just no longer a threat for the moment and hopefully for good.

    To give you an idea of the 21 foot issue, here's a Teuller drill that was used in a MVSA IDPA shoot. Keep in mind that these shooters already know what they are up against, they are expecting a buzzer, and do not have to identify a threat before they are justified in shooting. 21 feet in roughly 3 seconds and the shooter gets 4 shots off in a nice group. This IS NOT a typical self-defense response and this shooter would be lucky to get 1, maybe 2 shots off once the threat has been identified before the threat is close enough to touch the shooter.

    Come to think of it, this is an excellent video to watch and practice cross-draw at home with if that's your chosen method. The first 1-2 seconds are likely go by before you're even able to turn the muzzle forward. Hands/arms extended straight down the body or up in front of your chest (like in the LEO interview stance where your hands are in protecting your chest slightly), wait for the buzzer.....you know the rest I hope.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eZKd2LW9zQ
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 12-03-2010 at 10:36 PM.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    so please stop since your information is inflammatory, incorrect, and untrue to say the least.
    OK, I'll apologize for the tone of my post. I've had a REALLY nasty head cold all week, and your post sort of tripped my switch for a number of reasons. Sorry for coming across as rude...

    I'll cop to the "inflammatory" accusation. I did come on sort of strong...

    But I will not stand for being called a liar. Nothing in my post was incorrect or untrue. As we so often say on this forum, "cite please"...

    For the record, I'm NOT anti-CC. In fact, I'm a HUGE proponent of EVERYONE who carries (OC or CC) taking a Concealed Carry course specific to their state, so they can learn the laws about self defense, continuum of force, and "prohibited places". I personally hold a CHP in my home state (NC) as well as a PA LTCF and a Utah non-resident CFP. I carry concealed about 50% of the time in the winter (because clothing forces me to), and about 10-20% of the time in warm weather. I'm currently working toward getting certified as a CHP Instructor in NC, and I am the Campus Coordinator for SCCC at the university I am currently attending as a graduate student.

    I'm not attacking you because you mentioned CC. I like CC. I like people who CC. I like the idea of CC.

    I was merely criticizing your use of the term CCW, because it is inaccurate, confusing, and carries a lot of negative baggage for the non-gunnie public.

    As you may have deduced, I'm on a personal mission to eradicate the use of the term "CCW" among educated, informed gun owners, and I was just a little taken aback when an instructor used it. If ANYONE should know better, it's an instructor. As an instructor, you are on the front lines of the CC and OC movement, and your words will be taken to heart by your students. Your certifications and training carry with them tremendous authority in the eyes of your students, and so you owe it to them to use accurate, correct, and realistic terminology.

    You should avoid using incorrect terms, that's all I'm saying. Let me explain:

    The acronym "CCW" is not used in ANY state's statutes, codes, or regulations to describe a permit, license, or endorsement to legally carry a concealed weapon. States use terms like "CHP" (Concealed Handgun Permit), "LTCF" (License to Carry a Firearm), CWP (Concealed Weapons Permit), and a myriad of other alphabet soup, but there is not a single state or municipality in the nation that uses the acronym "CCW" to describe a permit, license, or endorsement to legally carry concealed.

    The ONLY place that the acronym "CCW" or the phrase "Carrying a Concealed Weapon" appears in statute or code in ANY state is in the definitions of the VIOLATION of illegally carrying concealed without a proper permit.

    For some reason, the gun press and many instructors insist on using this acronym to describe lawful concealed carry. I will never understand why, because it is inaccurate, confusing, and the acronym CCW carries a lot of negative baggage to people who are not familiar (or sympathetic) to 2A rights, or firearms law.

    I would suggest that when people talk about Concealed Carry-related topics, they use "CC" to describe Concealed Carry, like we use OC to describe Open Carry. We don't call it OCW, and for good reason. Using the word "Weapon" when speaking about lawful carry (in any configuration) has a LOT of scary, negative connotations for the general public. It sounds "military". It sounds "criminal". It sounds like like it's a tool to be used for offense, not DEFENSE.

    If you want to discuss the particular permit, license, or endorsement of your state, then please use the terminology used in your state's Statute. In NC, we call them CHP (concealed Handgun Permit). In PA, it's called a LTCF (License to Carry a Firearm).

    And in YOUR state, you don't get a special little card like most states. You get an "endorsement" on your Drivers License, and the Statute calls your "permit" a "Concealed Carry Endorsement". So the accurate acronym for your state is "CCE".

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000101.htm

    MRS §571.101. 1. All applicants for concealed carry endorsements issued pursuant to subsection 7 of this section must satisfy the requirements of sections 571.101 to 571.121. If the said applicant can show qualification as provided by sections 571.101 to 571.121, the county or city sheriff shall issue a certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement. Upon receipt of such certificate, the certificate holder shall apply for a driver's license or nondriver's license with the director of revenue in order to obtain a concealed carry endorsement. Any person who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement on a driver's license or nondriver's license and such endorsement or license has not been suspended, revoked, canceled, or denied may carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or within a vehicle. A concealed carry endorsement shall be valid for a period of three years from the date of issuance or renewal. The concealed carry endorsement is valid throughout this state.
    Sure, this makes talking about permits on a nation-wide forum a little tricky, because every state has their own little code-word for their particular permit.

    But NO state calls their permit a "CCW". Period. End of discussion...



    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    FBI statistics illustrate these facts:
    Up close and personal, 75% of attacks within 21 feet.
    They'll be violent....if they weren't, you wouldn't need your firearm.
    They'll be fast...3 seconds and the initial attack is over.
    Most violent crimes, burglaries, and others in the self-defense needed categories will be in low-light/no-light environments...making sights difficult to use.
    They WILL likely require multiple shots. One shot just won't get it done in most cases. (shotguns in the home may be an exception)
    Head shots stop the threat 100% of the time. Note that I did not say kill, I said stop, which could mean they are still alive and capable, just no longer a threat.
    What you fail to relate with these FBI statistics is that they were all gleaned from DOJ studies (mostly from NIJ and NCJRS--who I worked for, BTW, for a decade as a contractor) designed to collate data about self-defense shootings involving LEOs, not citizens.

    LEOs RARELY get attacked "out of the blue". It's in their job requirements to insert themselves intentionally into violent, volatile, dangerous situations. LEOs rarely get shot at just walking down the street. LEOs rarely get mugged, raped, or car-jacked. When LEOs find themselves in a gunfight, its usually because they've been called to the scene of a crime already in progress and they are trying to apprehend a dangerous, desperate criminal.

    When LEOs have their guns grabbed, its not because some BG sneaked up behind them in a mall and tried to make away with their Glock--99% of the time, LEO-related gun grabs happen while an LEO is grappling, wrestling, or otherwise attempting to physically restrain a subject. The LEO initiated physical contact with a BG, and the BG doesn't want to go peacefully.

    These situations are VERY different than the self-defense situations that citizens find themselves in. Citizens rarely are trying to restrain or apprehend a BG. Citizens rarely insert themselves intentionally into situations that are already violent, unless they have a personal interest in the victim. Citizens rarely approach BGs and announce that they are going to attempt to detain them.

    So the FBI studies (which are actually DOJ/NIJ/NCJRS studies, because the FBI doesn't have the staff or facilities to do this sort of research), while VERY informative for LEOs, are not terribly relevant or scientifically pertinent to the realities of self defense scenarios of the average citizen.

    LEOs are trained to be pro-active.

    Citizens are forced (by law, by morals, and by social convention) to be REACTIVE to criminals. Hopefully we as citizens will never have to deal with a criminal, but when we do, it's because THEY came to US, and so we are forced into a reactive state of self defense.

    When an LEO makes contact with BGs is USUALLY because the LEO has sought out the BG, and has intentionally made contact with the intent of apprehending (or at least detaining and investigating) said BG.

    Those are two VERY different scenarios. They create VERY different mindsets in the BG. And they carry with them VERY different legal duties and obligations for the "good guys", be they citizens or LEOs.

    Concealed Carry training is not LE training. In fact, most of the procedures that LEOs live by will get citizens arrested and jailed if we try to use them. To this end, I will never understand why so many CC instructors seem to think that LE-type scenarios have any relevancy to self defense situations encountered by citizens...

    What we need is some SERIOUS academic research on self defense events involving lawfully armed citizens. But with the rabid anti-gun sentiments in academia, and the unwillingness of the DOJ to fund ANY sort of research involving people who "refuse to be victims", such research is rare. The only reliable, peer-reviewed scientific research done along this line is th ework of John Lott. His work is FANTASTIC, but it's only one study. We need a LOT more studies like his...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-03-2010 at 11:23 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  9. #9
    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    After the intermission we now return to our previously scheduled discussion..........

    Got some good information so far, but far from a compendium on the subject. Any more sugestions? A comfortable carry for a medium sized pistol is the desired outcome.

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    I know I'm new here, but wow, what a hijack... well intentioned though it was, with useful information from both, but still a hijack...

    how about some sugjestions for the fellow for the desired location, (cross draw), and if you have other sugjustion, why not add them after your first, pertinent to the post, sugjustion. At this time, some reasoning for your addional sugjestions would be appropriate.

    I will admit the reasoning behind the cross-draw issue got my attention, as I carry that way often. My theroy is this: I have my gun with me, and not at home, or still in the truck, or... so it's better to be slow at cross draw, but have it, as not at all. But good to know, and to keep in mind. Thank you for that.

    I will stop now, as I realize that I also am adding to the hijack nature of this thread...

    Wolfhound, best of luck to you and your wife, I hope you are able to find a suitable solution. Myself, I have used Fobus kydex holsters for my Walther P22 (non adjustable, right hand only, which I normally wear on my left hip, cross draw style) and RotoHolster for my Glock 17, I have a left and right one, I use the right hand when hunting, again, left side, cross draw, doesn't interfer with the rifle being carried also. I use the left hand roto for concealed, small of back carry, keeps the gun postioned correctly, easy to grab, and out of the way... great unless you are driving or sitting in a chair. I forget the type of pistol you are trying to holster (I've read ALOT since the top of this thead) and perhaps Fobus doesn't make a holster for your gun, in which case I have done nothing but add to the clutter... **grin**

    Take care...
    Greg

    Semper Paratus -- latin, Always Prepaired

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Have you considered using a Serpa, but adjusting the mount so that it sits properly canted for cross-draw? You can put quite a bit of cant--in either direction--with the Serpa, and you could use either a paddle mount or the belt-slide, depending on needs and comfort...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post
    Got some good information so far, but far from a compendium on the subject. Any more sugestions? A comfortable carry for a medium sized pistol is the desired outcome.
    Not sure if you found one yet, but I use a D.M. Bullard "Dual Carry" for my 3" SP101. Great comfort, beautiful leather, but takes a good amount of time to receive. About 12 weeks before I had mine.

  13. #13
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    You can also find a custom leather holster maker to design something that is exactly what you want.
    These run from $80 to $200 depending on the maker, quality, and options.

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