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Thread: To Serve and Protect?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    To Serve and Protect?

    With badges like these, who needs to worry about gangs, muggers, or home invasions?

    http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

    DAILY news feeds reporting police misconduct, nationwide, plus a LOT of VERY useful and insightful statistics and charts tracking excessive force, abuse of power, and other corruption trends.

    Know your local LEA. Know their record. Be prepared...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Dreamer -

    How come you are not following bad firefighters, bad animal control officers, bad social services caseworkers, or bad any-of--the-other-public-worker-categories?

    We know that there are bad apples in all the barrels. We also know that you can get killed, wouned/injured/locked up when any of the bad ones do bad things that involve trampling rights.

    If you wanted to rag on the "To Serve and Protect" motto why not discuss all the case law that confirms that they really have no obligation to do either?

    stay safe.

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    I thought OCDO's stance is anti-LEO? I've only been on here a month but that seems to be the main inclination of the forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    I thought OCDO's stance is anti-LEO? I've only been on here a month but that seems to be the main inclination of the forum.
    That is the unfortunate inclination of many of the members. It is not the inclination of the site or its owners.

    Neither is it my inclination. LEOs are people. There are good people and bad. There are good LEOs and bad. I believe that the overwhelming majority would be on board with OC if they simply knew the laws and the facts. Education is our best option. Insulting generalizations about LEOs is our worst option.

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    I thought the forum was anti-LEO by design. If it is, then that's fine; it isn't my forum.

    Personally I adhere to what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong for all people.

    Thanks for the clarification Eye95.

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    It is unfortunate that you got that impression. If others get that impression then it means that we are probably putting off lots of people that we hope to sway. Shame on the folks who make the site appear to be anti-LEO.

    John and Mike, you might want to take note of this development.

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    I haven't noticed the proprietors/moderators take a stance on the issue one way or the other. I read the sticky about extremist/fringe issues but an anti-LEO disposition isn't extreme or fringe. It is just the unspoken rule/temperament of the forum.

    The OP is consistent with the forum doctrine. That link was really informative also.

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    Please read the site rules. LEO-bashing, is specifically by name, barred. That does not stop it, but the mods do take action against it when they see it.

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    Being anti-LEO doesn't necessarily equate to LEO bashing. But then again I've always seen you post with the utmost respect and intelligence as opposed to some others.

    Thank you for the clarification and your patience.

  10. #10
    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    That is the unfortunate inclination of many of the members. It is not the inclination of the site or its owners.

    Neither is it my inclination. LEOs are people. There are good people and bad. There are good LEOs and bad. I believe that the overwhelming majority would be on board with OC if they simply knew the laws and the facts. Education is our best option. Insulting generalizations about LEOs is our worst option.
    I recently had a conversation with a LEO in my area about the subject of OC. His stance was that although it is legal in GA with a GWL, he doesn't want a bunch of "cowboys" running around showing off their weapons. I advised him that his perception of OC'ers is way off base, and that we OC simply for self defense and public education purposes. Anyway, his view was if you aren't LE you should conceal. Some LEO's are ignorant about OC, and some are informed, they just don't support it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by COMMANDER1911 View Post
    I recently had a conversation with a LEO in my area about the subject of OC. His stance was that although it is legal in GA with a GWL, he doesn't want a bunch of "cowboys" running around showing off their weapons. I advised him that his perception of OC'ers is way off base, and that we OC simply for self defense and public education purposes. Anyway, his view was if you aren't LE you should conceal. Some LEO's are ignorant about OC, and some are informed, they just don't support it.
    True, and pointing out a specific instance to criticize is necessary. It becomes bashing when officers are generally painted with a broad brush. In my recent encounter, I saw the spectrum of attitudes. All five were ignorant of the law. Only one was dead set on arresting me. The rest were all curious about what I had to say. One was eager to learn more, and I'm sure he has visited ALOC several times.

    We stand a greater chance of winning over the hearts and minds of most LEOs by respecting them as individuals, just as we want them to think of us.

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    Unfortunately you will run across LEO's that have no common sense and extremely limited knowledge of the law. Patience and education will do a great deal. Then there are some that have an opinion about OC, and no amount of reasoning will change that. As long as they do not try to enforce their opinion, there is no problem.

    I've met LEO's across the spectrum in their knowledge and position on OC. Just take it one encounter at a time and be well equipped with the law. Being polite helps also even if they are rude.

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    Regular Member COMMANDER1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    True, and pointing out a specific instance to criticize is necessary. It becomes bashing when officers are generally painted with a broad brush. In my recent encounter, I saw the spectrum of attitudes. All five were ignorant of the law. Only one was dead set on arresting me. The rest were all curious about what I had to say. One was eager to learn more, and I'm sure he has visited ALOC several times.

    We stand a greater chance of winning over the hearts and minds of most LEOs by respecting them as individuals, just as we want them to think of us.
    I strongly agree
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    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    It is not and LEO bashing is specifically banned unless it relates to specific incidents of misconduct. So ... for examples, it would be ok to post about LEO X who stopped an open carrier and did Y.

    However, it is not ok to make statements such as "All LEOs are thugs", etc.

    Make sense?


    John

    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    I thought the forum was anti-LEO by design. If it is, then that's fine; it isn't my forum.

    Personally I adhere to what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong for all people.

    Thanks for the clarification Eye95.

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    John,

    I understand and agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    SNIP We stand a greater chance of winning over the hearts and minds of most LEOs by respecting them as individuals, just as we want them to think of us.
    Quote Originally Posted by COMMANDER1911 View Post
    I strongly agree
    I strongly disagree.

    In all but maybe one or two of the OCer-police illegal detentions, OC and the 2nd Amendment were not at issue. It was 4th and 5th Amendment abuses we read.

    Police are already required to respect the 4th and 5th Amendment; me being nice to cops isn't going to suddenly change their minds on those subjects.

    If we win police "acceptance" of OC (to whatever degree, from whichever willing cops), we really only achieve their forebearance on 4A and 5A abuses regarding OCers--not their recognition of 4A and 5A broadly. I'm not stupid enough to think those cops woke up that morning and said to themselves, "Today, for the first time in my career, I am going to abuse someone's rights, and enforce my personal opinion as if it is the law."

    And, too many "good" cops who genuinely play mostly by the rules are willing to tolerate abusers in their ranks.

    Police already have the respect of many resultant from the public relations image machine of "protect and serve", "heroes in blue", etc. And, we see weekly the abuses. I don't believe for one second that more respect is going to materially change the picture.

    We also have a number of examples where, having been caught and complained or sued, police fought tooth-and-nail with delaying tactics, FOIA request refusals, threats to continue breaking the law by illegally detaining OCers, etc.

    Its not OCers who owe more respect to police--most of us do anyway. Its police who owe respect to OCers and all citizens in the first place. More from us won't accomplish much, and when it does accomplish something, it won't turn off the 4A and 5A abuses, it will just make it more comfortable for OCers. And, it will do nothing--absolutely nothing--to tear down the Blue Wall of Silence by which even "good" cops tolerate abusers.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-01-2010 at 11:34 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I am very PRO-LEO. I have several family members and close friends who are LEOs, and as long as they follow the Rule of Law in the prosecution of their duties, I will support them, as I do ALL LEOs who act within the law, and are actually focused on upholding the law.

    When the newspapers start running stories about the LEOs that are out there supporting our Constitutional Rights, keeping the peace in a lawful manner, and being compassionate public servants, I will gladly post links to them.

    I know they are out there--Good cops are, in fact, the MAJORITY of LEOs in most jurisdictions (with a few isolated exceptions, where corruption and malfeasance is systemic). The trouble is that GOOD cops don't make for good headlines, so there aren't many news stories out there in that vein...

    Since the most serious problems OCers seem to have is with LEOs, and their misunderstanding of (or willful twisting of) the law, I think it is particularly important for people to be aware of the level of corruption and propensity toward brutality in their local areas, so they can be aware of what to expect.

    If people know that their local jurisdiction has a propensity toward excessive use of force, or falsifying reports, or trumped up charges, or planting evidence, or being involved in outright illegal activities, or having higher-than-normal incidents of civil rights violations or unjustified shootings, then OCers will be better prepared--mentally, legally, and conversationally--to deal with the prevailing attitudes and conventions of their local LEAs.

    For instance, considering what I know about Philadelphia--even though I have a PA LTCF, and know the laws of PA pretty well--I would be loathe to OC in Philly without at least two "witnesses", a few recording devices and a good PA lawyer on speed dial in my cell phone...

    Paranoid? No, I call it being well-prepared...

    Most jurisdictions are VERY open to OC. But the ones that aren't tend to be jurisdictions that also display disturbing trends with regards to general civil rights violations, corruption, misconduct, and color-of-law abuses.

    We, as OCers (and hence ACTIVISTS, whether we admit it or not) will be targeted in such jurisdictions, because we represent a threat to the "monopoly of power" that is enjoyed by such corrupt agencies. It is our DUTY to be informed, prepared, and intellectually capable of dealing with this sort of persecution, and one way to do that is to be fully aware of the overall attitudes of local LEAs toward the Rule of Law.

    LEAs that tolerate (or in some cases, actively engage in) unlawful behavior tend to be problematic for lawful OCers. We deserve to know which agencies are more likely to be problematic for us, and one way to do that is to keep informed on the crime trends inside departments all over the country.

    I'm not a cop-basher. I'm a CRIMINAL basher. When an LEO crosses that line and commits illegal acts under color of law, his badge ceases to be legitimate, and he is just another criminal, IMO. So when I report about LEOs who are caught dealing drugs, killing children with flash-bang grenades during no-knock warrants, shooting family pets during botched raids on the wrong house, or other illegal, irresponsible, or immoral activities, I'm NOT bashing cops. I'm reporting on criminals who just happened to sneak through the system and are now wearing badges.

    Those are two VERY different things...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-02-2010 at 02:27 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Really, I'm not trying to find these sorts of articles, but when I did a Google search on "good cops" this is the FIRST article that came up:

    http://www.pixiq.com/article/when-go...f-police-abuse

    Even when journalists are writing stories about good cops--conscientious, by-the-book, law-abiding, service-oriented LEOs who do not tolerate misconduct in their fellow officers--it seems such articles are invariably about how criminals with badges abuse, mistreat, and persecute them...

    No bashing, just reporting on a sad, sad trend...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    With badges like these, who needs to worry about gangs, muggers, or home invasions?

    http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

    DAILY news feeds reporting police misconduct, nationwide, plus a LOT of VERY useful and insightful statistics and charts tracking excessive force, abuse of power, and other corruption trends.

    Know your local LEA. Know their record. Be prepared...
    While those officers exist and always have, they are a very small minority and departments all over the country work hard to keep them a very small minority.

    Too bad it is not possible to totally eliminate them.
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    Are there bad COPS. Sure, as there are bad Lawyers, bad Doctors, bad Dentists, bad Firemen, bad Politicians, bad Judges, bad Spouse, etc, etc.... and any one of the above can really mess up your life, but IMHO only Law Enforcement Officers are here to Serve and Protect us and I'll never bash one.

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how pointing out blatant misconduct could be remotely interpreted as "anti-law enforcement". Is any criticism of anything considered "anti"? If that's the case then there's no need for rational thought or reasoning. No one on this planet is above criticism, no one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gsx1138 View Post
    I'm not sure how pointing out blatant misconduct could be remotely interpreted as "anti-law enforcement". Is any criticism of anything considered "anti"? If that's the case then there's no need for rational thought or reasoning. No one on this planet is above criticism, no one.
    A lot of members here go past the criticism of an event of blatant misconduct to full-blown bashing of all LEOs, as though all are routinely guilty of horrific abuses of power. This creates the unfortunate misimpression that this site is anti-LEO.

    As I have said repeatedly, if we want to win the hearts and minds of this citizenry, it is in our best interest not to appear to be a bunch of wackadoodles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    A lot of members here go past the criticism of an event of blatant misconduct to full-blown bashing of all LEOs, as though all are routinely guilty of horrific abuses of power. This creates the unfortunate misimpression that this site is anti-LEO.

    As I have said repeatedly, if we want to win the hearts and minds of this citizenry, it is in our best interest not to appear to be a bunch of wackadoodles.
    I had to look wackadoodle up.

    1. An eccentric, ditsy, arcane, funny, person. Is generally a goodnatured and sympathetic person. Not to be confused with a "wackjob," who can be nasty,or violent.


    2.Its use to denote a person who is crazy or act of stupidity.

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    Nice dodge. Moving on.

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    LEO's are first and foremost, citizens of the community. There needs to be that realization on the part of the individual officer. As for 4th and 5th amendment violations, that says a lot about the training of the department if there are numerous officers violating rights. If the agency itself has very few incidents, it probably lies more with the individual officer.

    Training and common sense go a long way.

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