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To Serve and Protect?

gsx1138

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
882
Location
Bremerton, Washington, United States
I'm not sure how pointing out blatant misconduct could be remotely interpreted as "anti-law enforcement". Is any criticism of anything considered "anti"? If that's the case then there's no need for rational thought or reasoning. No one on this planet is above criticism, no one.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I'm not sure how pointing out blatant misconduct could be remotely interpreted as "anti-law enforcement". Is any criticism of anything considered "anti"? If that's the case then there's no need for rational thought or reasoning. No one on this planet is above criticism, no one.

A lot of members here go past the criticism of an event of blatant misconduct to full-blown bashing of all LEOs, as though all are routinely guilty of horrific abuses of power. This creates the unfortunate misimpression that this site is anti-LEO.

As I have said repeatedly, if we want to win the hearts and minds of this citizenry, it is in our best interest not to appear to be a bunch of wackadoodles.
 

zack991

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Messages
1,535
Location
Ohio, USA
A lot of members here go past the criticism of an event of blatant misconduct to full-blown bashing of all LEOs, as though all are routinely guilty of horrific abuses of power. This creates the unfortunate misimpression that this site is anti-LEO.

As I have said repeatedly, if we want to win the hearts and minds of this citizenry, it is in our best interest not to appear to be a bunch of wackadoodles.

I had to look wackadoodle up.

1. An eccentric, ditsy, arcane, funny, person. Is generally a goodnatured and sympathetic person. Not to be confused with a "wackjob," who can be nasty,or violent.


2.Its use to denote a person who is crazy or act of stupidity.
 

palerider116

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
572
Location
Unknown
LEO's are first and foremost, citizens of the community. There needs to be that realization on the part of the individual officer. As for 4th and 5th amendment violations, that says a lot about the training of the department if there are numerous officers violating rights. If the agency itself has very few incidents, it probably lies more with the individual officer.

Training and common sense go a long way.
 

Guido

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
46
Location
Wilder, Idaho, USA
I strongly disagree.

In all but maybe one or two of the OCer-police illegal detentions, OC and the 2nd Amendment were not at issue. It was 4th and 5th Amendment abuses we read.

Police are already required to respect the 4th and 5th Amendment; me being nice to cops isn't going to suddenly change their minds on those subjects.

If we win police "acceptance" of OC (to whatever degree, from whichever willing cops), we really only achieve their forebearance on 4A and 5A abuses regarding OCers--not their recognition of 4A and 5A broadly. I'm not stupid enough to think those cops woke up that morning and said to themselves, "Today, for the first time in my career, I am going to abuse someone's rights, and enforce my personal opinion as if it is the law."

And, too many "good" cops who genuinely play mostly by the rules are willing to tolerate abusers in their ranks.

Police already have the respect of many resultant from the public relations image machine of "protect and serve", "heroes in blue", etc. And, we see weekly the abuses. I don't believe for one second that more respect is going to materially change the picture.

We also have a number of examples where, having been caught and complained or sued, police fought tooth-and-nail with delaying tactics, FOIA request refusals, threats to continue breaking the law by illegally detaining OCers, etc.

Its not OCers who owe more respect to police--most of us do anyway. Its police who owe respect to OCers and all citizens in the first place. More from us won't accomplish much, and when it does accomplish something, it won't turn off the 4A and 5A abuses, it will just make it more comfortable for OCers. And, it will do nothing--absolutely nothing--to tear down the Blue Wall of Silence by which even "good" cops tolerate abusers.

I agree with you completely, I was always taught to at least be polite to others. To treat them as I would want to be treated but that does not mean I will or have to give them my respect.

I grew up with quite a few people who ended up being LEO's for one department or another and most of them are good people but I do know 1 or 2 who were not very good people to begin with and once they joined a department their attitudes towards people went down hill from there, I know for a fact that at least one officer stole enough money off of a drug dealer to buy himself a Harley Davidson, this was communicated to 2 seperate LEO's one of whom was a Federal Officer and yet nothing was done at the time or afterwords to stop the abuses by this officer.

I learned that even "good" LEO's will not report their buddy's or fellow officers for most offenses, which is sad really considering the trust we as a society have placed in their hands.
 
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aadvark

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
1,597
Location
, ,
[...] '... nter-Ties with Camaraderie RUN DEEP, especially when such Job Security is, at least, and in often times, Dependent on ones' Rank...' [...]
 

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
hmmmm....

Clothes_dont_make_a_man.jpg
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
Bringing up deficiencies in law enforcement does not make one "anti-LEO".

I think 99% of us known better.

We do not want to be labeled "criminals" like those who conceal carry and commit crimes any more than a constitutionally grounded officer wants to be grouped with his corrupt colleagues.

The disparaging difference here is that most LEO infidelity is kept behind the boundaries of the thin blue line, while if an OC'er were caught in criminal conduct of the same caliber of infidelities and crimes listed on that bulletin the OP posted, we would have even more problems with our activities, and there would likely be some form of congressional hearing on how our conduct was "unbecoming US citizens".

No, I don't think anybody is patently "Anti-LEO" on this site.

I think it's more a factor of, "Aww these guys are special and because they wear a uniform we will lower the severity of the repercussions of their activities significantly, and in most cases, even allow them to keep their jobs.", that we do not agree with.

Just sayin.
 

REALteach4u

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
428
Location
Spfld, Mo.
Dreamer -

How come you are not following bad firefighters, bad animal control officers, bad social services caseworkers, or bad any-of--the-other-public-worker-categories?

We know that there are bad apples in all the barrels. We also know that you can get killed, wouned/injured/locked up when any of the bad ones do bad things that involve trampling rights.

If you wanted to rag on the "To Serve and Protect" motto why not discuss all the case law that confirms that they really have no obligation to do either?

stay safe.


Could it be because this particular category of people is allowed to lie, be deceitful, violate the law, overlook the law, cheat, plagiarize, steal, commit fraud, and an entire menu of other crimes without being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law just like you and I? Keep in mind that some of these crimes have been authorized by the U.S. Supreme Court, yet many are disqualifying criteria for a job of that nature.

Or perhaps it's because this particular category of people is allowed to bring ANYTHING you've said or done into court as evidence against YOU, but the courts consider anything they have said as hearsay.

Or perhaps it's because this particular category of people immediately says "you're guilty" if you invoke your 5th Amendment right or ask for your lawyer.

Or perhaps it's because the courts have decided that your Miranda rights are not rights at all and that you must verbally invoke them or they simply do not apply. (this happened in a VERY recent USSC decision)

Or perhaps it's because "internal affairs" does little more than cover up criminal or borderline criminal acts by this particular category of people...when they can get away with doing so. Officers also cover up for their own, it's not just IA.

I can do this all month if needed, but you should get the point by now. They are not held to a higher standard and should be. They often believe that their badge gives them the "right" to do anything they want to anyone they want whenever they feel it's necessary....justification be damned.

Stand up and fight issues involving their wrong doings/etc. and you can bet you'll promptly be under investigation and anything you say/do WILL be used against you in a court of law.
 
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eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I think the last two posts stand in wonderful juxtaposition.

The universe sometimes amazes me in its infinite ability to entertain.
 

OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
907
Location
Oklahoma
I agree with you completely, I was always taught to at least be polite to others. To treat them as I would want to be treated but that does not mean I will or have to give them my respect.

I grew up with quite a few people who ended up being LEO's for one department or another and most of them are good people but I do know 1 or 2 who were not very good people to begin with and once they joined a department their attitudes towards people went down hill from there, I know for a fact that at least one officer stole enough money off of a drug dealer to buy himself a Harley Davidson, this was communicated to 2 seperate LEO's one of whom was a Federal Officer and yet nothing was done at the time or afterwords to stop the abuses by this officer.

I learned that even "good" LEO's will not report their buddy's or fellow officers for most offenses, which is sad really considering the trust we as a society have placed in their hands.

Such reports should be made either to IA(Internal Affairs) or well up the chain of command(usually at least a captain, preferably a deputy chief).

The human thing is to protect those who may have to protect your back.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
They have no duty to serve and protect. That is our duty. There is a LEA/LEO problem and Citizen poignantly pointed it out. I would like to add the only way to correct it is as citizens not putting up with it and demanding to be treated with respect and demanding they follow the laws too.

My last several instances show how the whole department even though may have "good" cops, will close rank and protect the illegal, outrageous behavior. There is also a felonious thing they do, lie and be misleading on police reports, I haven't read one where they haven't done this. They justify it and call it testilying it is very disturbing to me.

I have a recording where I asked the prosecutor, if it is his job to prosecute law breakers, he said yes, I asked how about when officers break the law, his response was an uncomfortable "I don't know".

There is a "war" that has been underway on how much freedom and liberty will we give up for some fake "safety". Let's not let them win.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/181241.pdf

http://www.november.org/stayinfo/breaking06/Muckraker.html

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/349169_lying29.html
 

OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
907
Location
Oklahoma
I agree with you completely, I was always taught to at least be polite to others. To treat them as I would want to be treated but that does not mean I will or have to give them my respect.

I read recently that a judge ruled being polite was "giving permission to search" where no permission was actually given. With rulings like that I would stop at being barely civil. No being polite.
 

CharleyMarbles

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
151
Location
Clio, Michigan, USA
One can be polite but firm and clear in the assertion of his rights.

ok I like you Eye but SHOULD one have to be polite when their right's are being VIOLATED??? I mean realy now it's not as if the LEO doesn't KNOW he is violating your rights??? and if he doesn't then should he realy be enforcing the laws that are suposed to be safeguarding those rights??? Just saying. I disagree with the concept that if I don't tell the LEO anything at all and am trying to be polite that I have consented to my right's being violated ?? That is totaly ludicris.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I am never polite because I have to be. I am polite because it is what I hope for in return. Not that I am polite to gain politeness. I just think that, if I expect politeness, I ought to be willing to be polite.

I can be blunt too. (Kinda hard to miss.) My bluntness will turn to deliberate rudeness only when met with rudeness.

Anyway, if you haven't listened to the recording of my last encounter with LEOs (four of them this time), I remain polite. I get blunt at points. However the officers never get rude with me, so I never get rude with them.

I guess the point is to be polite in all dealings (LEOs or no) until it is clear that politeness ain't working and won't be reciprocated.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Again last night I had an incident where I tried to politely affirm my right to remain silent, LEO didn't like it, told me I need to cooperate or he'll.......he berated me asked me what I had to hide, why am I being so uncooperative on and on.....I have not had one incident where a cop decided hey thats your right, good for you for sticking up for your rights.

I'm am fed up with them, they are no longer concerned with what is right or wrong, they are concerned with power and being a political tool of those in charged.

He had nothing on me so guess what he did, I helped a tow truck driver who had a cable connected to a vehicle pull it out of a ditch, because I sat in the car and put it in reverse to get it out of the ditch, I now have a ticket for no insurance, and no license for operating a vehicle on a road.

Leo will not get any cooperation from me from now on period, I am done with being a "good" citizen, I will not talk with them on the phone, in person, help with an investigation nothing. I am done.
 

creek456

New member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
4
Location
usa
That's exactly it. You have to be clear and confident without being disrespectful. A lot of cops or LEOs or whatever joined because they wanted a position of power and what position has more power than an officer? They are like sharks whenever they're around everyone just tries to blend into the background and get the heck out of there.
 
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