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Thread: Why you might need a gun in Detriot

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Why you might need a gun in Detriot

    Police Arrest 2 Men In Auto Shop Robbery

    Police said a male suspect tried to hold-up the shop, but a shop worker turned the tables on the suspect, whipping out a gun and shooting the suspect multiple times.

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/25967230/detail.html

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Police Arrest 2 Men In Auto Shop Robbery

    Police said a male suspect tried to hold-up the shop, but a shop worker turned the tables on the suspect, whipping out a gun and shooting the suspect multiple times.

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/25967230/detail.html
    Good guys +2
    Bad guys 0


  3. #3
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    too bad the shooter wasn't better at shooting....


    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Police Arrest 2 Men In Auto Shop Robbery

    Police said a male suspect tried to hold-up the shop, but a shop worker turned the tables on the suspect, whipping out a gun and shooting the suspect multiple times.

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/25967230/detail.html

    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    One less "D" bag we have to worry about. YEAH!


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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    One less "D" bag we have to worry about. YEAH!

    well so far he isn't dead, so we just have one wounded d-bag. he will serve a little time get simpathy from the jury and be out a better criminal for the jail time he got. now he will even get "props" from his d-bag friends for getting shot and surviving!

    i think the store owner did the right thing though. it couldn't hurt for him to get a little range practice.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Shop employee did his job - he stopped the perp and reinforced the teaching assignment.

    Warning to BGs........don't!
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Why do we always assume that the good guy needs some range time simply because the bad guy didn’t die? We don’t know the particulars of the shooting. Namely the angle of attack or if there were numerous objects obstructing the store employee’s line of sight thus allowing the scumbag a copious amount of cover which may have aided his escape/retreat. The fact that he scored multiple hits on his assailant without getting hit in return, vindicates the employee and his tactical prowess in my book.

    Remember the first priority in any gunfight is NOT to get hit yourself.

    One has to take into account that the store employee was set upon by two criminals that means tactically, he didn’t get to choose when and where the engagement would begin and it also meant two sets of eyes watching him. Even if only one criminal possessed a firearm, the store employee still had to be judicious enough and quick enough to draw from a concealed position and ensure that his first and maybe only volley of fire would be so debilitating that it would force the criminals to flee.

    If he had missed too many critical shots maybe the criminals would have felt emboldened enough to return fire and cut him down from where his stood or crouched. Remember gentlemen real life shooting is nothing like the range where we have the luxury of getting our stance correct, an infinite amount of time to align our sights and where there is no threat of the paper target returning fire. This store employee pulled it all off in an offhanded instant and drove the criminals from the store without injury to himself or any innocent bystanders, what more can you ask for?
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    Why do we always assume that the good guy needs some range time simply because the bad guy didn’t die? We don’t know the particulars of the shooting. Namely the angle of attack or if there were numerous objects obstructing the store employee’s line of sight thus allowing the scumbag a copious amount of cover which may have aided his escape/retreat. The fact that he scored multiple hits on his assailant without getting hit in return, vindicates the employee and his tactical prowess in my book.

    Remember the first priority in any gunfight is NOT to get hit yourself.

    One has to take into account that the store employee was set upon by two criminals that means tactically, he didn’t get to choose when and where the engagement would begin and it also meant two sets of eyes watching him. Even if only one criminal possessed a firearm, the store employee still had to be judicious enough and quick enough to draw from a concealed position and ensure that his first and maybe only volley of fire would be so debilitating that it would force the criminals to flee.

    If he had missed too many critical shots maybe the criminals would have felt emboldened enough to return fire and cut him down from where his stood or crouched. Remember gentlemen real life shooting is nothing like the range where we have the luxury of getting our stance correct, an infinite amount of time to align our sights and where there is no threat of the paper target returning fire. This store employee pulled it all off in an offhanded instant and drove the criminals from the store without injury to himself or any innocent bystanders, what more can you ask for?
    your right of course, not getting shot is top priority!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    Why do we always assume that the good guy needs some range time simply because the bad guy didn’t die? We don’t know the particulars of the shooting. Namely the angle of attack or if there were numerous objects obstructing the store employee’s line of sight thus allowing the scumbag a copious amount of cover which may have aided his escape/retreat. The fact that he scored multiple hits on his assailant without getting hit in return, vindicates the employee and his tactical prowess in my book.

    Remember the first priority in any gunfight is NOT to get hit yourself.

    One has to take into account that the store employee was set upon by two criminals that means tactically, he didn’t get to choose when and where the engagement would begin and it also meant two sets of eyes watching him. Even if only one criminal possessed a firearm, the store employee still had to be judicious enough and quick enough to draw from a concealed position and ensure that his first and maybe only volley of fire would be so debilitating that it would force the criminals to flee.

    If he had missed too many critical shots maybe the criminals would have felt emboldened enough to return fire and cut him down from where his stood or crouched. Remember gentlemen real life shooting is nothing like the range where we have the luxury of getting our stance correct, an infinite amount of time to align our sights and where there is no threat of the paper target returning fire. This store employee pulled it all off in an offhanded instant and drove the criminals from the store without injury to himself or any innocent bystanders, what more can you ask for?

    because a majority of the people that post on here are keyboard warriors that will always shoot to kill and never miss...

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    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    unfortunately i have had to shoot and he is right. whatever scenario you have in your head of your legal self defense shoot it is scary, hard and a feeling you can't fully describe unless you've been there. my shot hit my assailant in the hand. i didn't know til later i even got him. we learned as LEO that shootings are 3's. 3 shots, 3 feet away and 3 seconds. it's not a tv Die Hard roll around duck and shoot.

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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    "Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious."

    - George Orwell


    Again, you are working from the assumption that the store employee had a kill shot and chose not to take it and instead fired at non-lethal portions of the criminal’s body.

    Beerme, unless you possess the uncanny ability to peek inside another human-being’s memory and see events through their eyes; may I suggest you abstain from the Rambo rhetoric?

    Furthermore, my official policy isn’t to shoot to kill but to "shoot to stop the threat." Now if my self defense shooting results in the death of someone trying to kill me or do great bodily harm to me or some third party that is most unfortunate but not my intent. Possession of a valid CPL isn’t a license to kill. This is something my CPL instructor stressed. Thus you do not speak for me when you write:

    "....a majority of the people that post on here are keyboard warriors that will always shoot to kill"

    If you ever find yourself involved in a self-defense shooting; the aforementioned and irresponsible quote of yours could be used by a zealous anti-gun prosecutor to crucify you on the witness stand and portray you as a deliberate cold-blooded killer.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    "Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious."

    - George Orwell


    Furthermore, my official policy isn’t to shoot to kill but to "shoot to stop the threat." Now if my self defense shooting results in the death of someone trying to kill me or do great bodily harm to me or some third party that is most unfortunate but not my intent. Possession of a valid CPL isn’t a license to kill. This is something my CPL instructor stressed. Thus you do not speak for me when you write:

    "....a majority of the people that post on here are keyboard warriors that will always shoot to kill"

    If you ever find yourself involved in a self-defense shooting; the aforementioned and irresponsible quote of yours could be used by a zealous anti-gun prosecutor to crucify you on the witness stand and portray you as a deliberate cold-blooded killer.
    Well said - something that cannot be stressed enough.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    "Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious."

    - George Orwell


    Again, you are working from the assumption that the store employee had a kill shot and chose not to take it and instead fired at non-lethal portions of the criminal’s body.

    Beerme, unless you possess the uncanny ability to peek inside another human-being’s memory and see events through their eyes; may I suggest you abstain from the Rambo rhetoric?

    Furthermore, my official policy isn’t to shoot to kill but to "shoot to stop the threat." Now if my self defense shooting results in the death of someone trying to kill me or do great bodily harm to me or some third party that is most unfortunate but not my intent. Possession of a valid CPL isn’t a license to kill. This is something my CPL instructor stressed. Thus you do not speak for me when you write:

    "....a majority of the people that post on here are keyboard warriors that will always shoot to kill"

    If you ever find yourself involved in a self-defense shooting; the aforementioned and irresponsible quote of yours could be used by a zealous anti-gun prosecutor to crucify you on the witness stand and portray you as a deliberate cold-blooded killer.
    Where in my post did I advocate shooting to kill?
    show me.

    do not try to change what my post meant for your own purpose
    I am never one who advocates shooting to kill and it has been seen numerous times on here.

    When did I assume the clerk had a kill shot in view?
    where did that even come from????????
    the clerk did perfect and all of the keyboard warriors i was refering to could use a lesson from him.
    just so you can get it through your head this time, this post is not advocating shooting to kill and in no way is implying i would ever shoot to kill, so any attempt to make it look like I was advocating shooting to kill is completely unfounded.
    Last edited by Beerme; 12-03-2010 at 09:10 AM.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerme View Post
    because I made a facetious comment about people who always say they will shoot to kill?
    really?
    keep dreamin dude, my post in no way was implying that I will ever shoot to kill.
    I am an NRA instructor, I know how to shoot and I know that it is smarter to shoot quickly and defuse the situation than it is to try and intentionally kill someone.
    You know that your comments are facetious or you weren't implying certain things. The point being made is that doesn't matter when a prosecutor could be able to use your comments against you. And I see what Iceman is saying and how that's a possibility. Because there is something a bit non-sensible about your comments or they are not worded well. You do not write in the most clear manner, and this could be especially worrisome for such of your comments as above.

    For instance, I didn't understand your "keyboard commando" comment when you used it as a response to Iceman's post. It doesn't make sense as a reply to his points. Also, your comment that begins with "I'm an NRA instructor . . ." is poorly written and I don't quite understand precisely what point you are making. Which means your words could also possibly be more ripe for abuse by a prosecutor, and remember a prosecutor *will* use your words to your greatest disadvantage:

    Let's say, Beerme, you shot someone in self-defense, but you are on trial because the prosecutor has a woody for gun owners and he knows how to play to the juries in his jurisdiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by No one, this is a hypothetical:
    Prosecutor: "Mr. Beerme, if something is true about a majority of people in a group, then does that mean it is 'likely to be true' or 'not likely to be true' about any one individual of that group?"

    Beerme: "Likely to be true, of course."

    Prosecutor: "Mr. Beerme, are you in or not in the group of people who post on OCDO?"

    Beerme: "I'm in that group."

    Prosecutor: "So, Mr. Beerme, if something is true about the majority who post on OCDO then it is likely to be true about you, unless we know it not to be true about you specifically. Is that completely sensible or not?

    Beerme: "Yes, completely sensible."

    Prosecutor: "Mr. Beerme, you yourself once wrote 'A majority of people that post on [OCDO] are keyboard warriors that will always shoot to kill . . .', correct?"

    Beerme: "Yes."

    Prosecutor: "And, Mr. Beerme, you didn't write 'will always shoot to kill a person who is a real threat', you just wrote 'will always shoot to kill', right?"

    Beerme: "Right."

    Prosecutor: "No further questions at this time, your honor."
    A similar hypothetical prosecutorial field day can be had with your "it is smarter to shoot quickly and defuse the situation", with emphasis on how "shoot quickly" can be played on by a hypothetical prosecutor with a woody for you.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    You know that your comments are facetious or you weren't implying certain things. The point being made is that doesn't matter when a prosecutor could be able to use your comments against you. And I see what Iceman is saying and how that's a possibility. Because there is something a bit non-sensible about your comments or they are not worded well. You do not write in the most clear manner, and this could be especially worrisome for such of your comments as above.

    For instance, I didn't understand your "keyboard commando" comment when you used it as a response to Iceman's post. It doesn't make sense as a reply to his points. Also, your comment that begins with "I'm an NRA instructor . . ." is poorly written and I don't quite understand precisely what point you are making. Which means your words could also possibly be more ripe for abuse by a prosecutor, and remember a prosecutor *will* use your words to your greatest disadvantage:

    Let's say, Beerme, you shot someone in self-defense, but you are on trial because the prosecutor has a woody for gun owners and he knows how to play to the juries in his jurisdiction.



    A similar hypothetical prosecutorial field day can be had with your "it is smarter to shoot quickly and defuse the situation", with emphasis on how "shoot quickly" can be played on by a hypothetical prosecutor with a woody for you.
    I would not be dumb enough to give any of those answers that you provided, you may be but not me.
    that being said, please do not EVER speak for me

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerme View Post
    I would not be dumb enough to give any of those answers that you provided
    You evidently have a misconception of the types of questions and the latitude you would have in answering a prosecutor's examination of you as the defendant and a hostile witness. The prosecutor will not ask you a question to which he does not already know the answer, and the questions will rarely be open-ended. You will give the answers that the prosecutor already knows are coming and that damns you the most. If you attempt to give an explanatory answer to a closed-ended question, you will be cut off. If you do not answer, you will be ordered to answer. If you don't give the correct answer, you will be impeached. All of which will just make you look worse to the jury.

    While my hypothetical may not be exactly what would be said, it is a good representation of how it would go down. You would be asked air-tight questions designed to make you look dumb or, better, guilty. And it's not that you're "dumb enough" to give those answers, it's that you have no choice other than to not answer or to lie, which are even more dumb than giving the prosecutors the answers they know are coming from you.

    Of course, if you don't take the witness stand at all, the prosecutor is merely going to make the same points to the jury about your comments in another fashion.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    You evidently have a misconception of the types of questions and the latitude you would have in answering a prosecutor's examination of you as the defendant and a hostile witness. The prosecutor will not ask you a question to which he does not already know the answer, and the questions will rarely be open-ended. You will give the answers that the prosecutor already knows are coming and that damns you the most. If you attempt to give an explanatory answer to a closed-ended question, you will be cut off. If you do not answer, you will be ordered to answer. If you don't give the correct answer, you will be impeached. All of which will just make you look worse to the jury.

    While my hypothetical may not be exactly what would be said, it is a good representation of how it would go down. You would be asked air-tight questions designed to make you look dumb or, better, guilty. And it's not that you're "dumb enough" to give those answers, it's that you have no choice other than to not answer or to lie, which are even more dumb than giving the prosecutors the answers they know are coming from you.

    Of course, if you don't take the witness stand at all, the prosecutor is merely going to make the same points to the jury about your comments in another fashion.
    You can't prove in a court of law that what anyone says here on their screen name was written by them. Accounts get hacked, shared, lots of reasons. A good lawyer could toss things written here as hearsay.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You can't prove in a court of law that what anyone says here on their screen name was written by them. Accounts get hacked, shared, lots of reasons. A good lawyer could toss things written here as hearsay.
    Gee, I wonder why lawyers always instruct their clients to NOT post potentially incriminating things on the net then. Oh and you can be tracked to your front door too.

    Further, a prosecuting attorney does not have to prove that you made the statements - just convince a judge or jury that you most likely did. You can be buried under a ton of evidence, one grain at a time.

    Ymmv - your choice.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You can't prove in a court of law that what anyone says here on their screen name was written by them. Accounts get hacked, shared, lots of reasons. A good lawyer could toss things written here as hearsay.
    With a good lawyer, this is possible but not certain as you portray.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    With a good lawyer, this is possible but not certain as you portray.
    So you have made your point that your original point is irrelevant

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    ...thanks. I almost forgot why I haven't visited in a while.

  22. #22
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    You evidently have a misconception of the types of questions and the latitude you would have in answering a prosecutor's examination of you as the defendant and a hostile witness. The prosecutor will not ask you a question to which he does not already know the answer, and the questions will rarely be open-ended. You will give the answers that the prosecutor already knows are coming and that damns you the most. If you attempt to give an explanatory answer to a closed-ended question, you will be cut off. If you do not answer, you will be ordered to answer. If you don't give the correct answer, you will be impeached. All of which will just make you look worse to the jury.

    While my hypothetical may not be exactly what would be said, it is a good representation of how it would go down. You would be asked air-tight questions designed to make you look dumb or, better, guilty. And it's not that you're "dumb enough" to give those answers, it's that you have no choice other than to not answer or to lie, which are even more dumb than giving the prosecutors the answers they know are coming from you.

    Of course, if you don't take the witness stand at all, the prosecutor is merely going to make the same points to the jury about your comments in another fashion.
    very good points, all should be taken to heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You can't prove in a court of law that what anyone says here on their screen name was written by them. Accounts get hacked, shared, lots of reasons. A good lawyer could toss things written here as hearsay.
    true but do you really want to take that chance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Gee, I wonder why lawyers always instruct their clients to NOT post potentially incriminating things on the net then. Oh and you can be tracked to your front door too.

    Further, a prosecuting attorney does not have to prove that you made the statements - just convince a judge or jury that you most likely did. You can be buried under a ton of evidence, one grain at a time.

    Ymmv - your choice.
    yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    With a good lawyer, this is possible but not certain as you portray.
    agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beerme View Post
    So you have made your point that your original point is irrelevant


    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    ...thanks. I almost forgot why I haven't visited in a while.
    you think this thread is good check out the ponderosa thread, WOW
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    we learned as LEO that shootings are 3's. 3 shots, 3 feet away and 3 seconds

    Can you explain that more please, im not following
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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    what would you like more explanation on, i don't follow the question?
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

  25. #25
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    unfortunately i have had to shoot and he is right. whatever scenario you have in your head of your legal self defense shoot it is scary, hard and a feeling you can't fully describe unless you've been there. my shot hit my assailant in the hand. i didn't know til later i even got him. we learned as LEO that shootings are 3's. 3 shots, 3 feet away and 3 seconds. it's not a tv Die Hard roll around duck and shoot.

    i dont understand the term "we learned as LEO that shootings are 3's. 3 shots, 3 feet away and 3 second"
    Last edited by Onnie; 12-05-2010 at 11:22 AM.
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
    American Tactical Imports C45 45 AP
    S&W sigma 40 Cal
    Bersa 380 Thunder Plus
    Hi point C9 9mm
    Chiappa 1911-22 Semi-Auto .22 LR

    Im not a lawyer, but I did play a Klingon once at Universal Studios

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