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Thread: Legal to OC long gun or short barreled pistol grip shotgun?

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    Question Legal to OC long gun or short barreled pistol grip shotgun?

    I'm wondering what the legalities of this are. I will leave my sword questions for another forum unless sometimes know the law as well.

    This picture is just an example of something I saw.
    http://www.hatchergun.com/images/Holster_1.JPG


    eta. I'm currently simply curious of legal/illegal.
    Last edited by Passive101; 12-02-2010 at 01:33 AM.

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    Short barreled shotguns/rifles are not allowed in WI? What if you have the proper paper work for them?
    Last edited by Passive101; 12-02-2010 at 02:00 AM.

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    I did not know that.
    Last edited by Passive101; 12-02-2010 at 02:20 AM.

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    Does that mean if a shotgun has an 18" barrel and a folding stock it is also illegal? This could explain why I don't see 870 tacticals sold with folding stocks in gun stores in this state.


    I have seen folding stock AK47's with 16" barrels though both side and under folders. Do they go by the length of them extended?

    I found a thread here http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=304697

    There was never a clear answer about how it was measured in WI. Federal law was said to be measured with the stock extended, but some states will measure with the stock folded.
    Last edited by Passive101; 12-02-2010 at 02:19 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Short barreled Shotguns/Rifles (SBS, SBR) are totally legal in WI as long as you have the proper Tax Stamp through the BATFE. It's on a Form 1 if I recall correctly.
    “The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.” — Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that a pistol (something BUILT as a pistol) IS legal regardless of whether it shoots shot shells or standard pistol cartridges. Think of the Judge...it shoots .410 shot shells and .45 COLT. Think of the Bond Arms Deringer, the one I have shoots both .410 shot shells and .45 Colt. The "Mares Leg" pistol is a lever action pistol built from the same receivers used to build carbines and rifles. If you build it as a pistol and it is sold as a pistol there is no SBR paperwork, no tax stamp and it is not AOW. If you add anything to a "pistol" most likely it is now illegal and will be redefined as a SBR or AOW and without the $200 tax stamp will land you in jail. So don't add a pistol grip to a pistol and before you add anything else find out if it is legal first.

    I also have two AR-15 pistols with 10 inch barrels. They are NOT SBR's nor AOWs...they are pistols and no special paperwork is required.

    If the shot gun in the photo posted was built as a pistol then it is legal as is and does not require any special paperwork. I have seen many single and double barrel shot shell pistols for sale and they are legal as long as they were built as a pistol, sold as a pistol and not modified (such as by adding the forward "pistol grip").
    Last edited by rcawdor57; 12-02-2010 at 02:58 AM. Reason: Added content.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    Keep in mind that a pistol (something BUILT as a pistol) IS legal regardless of whether it shoots shot shells or standard pistol cartridges. Think of the Judge...it shoots .410 shot shells and .45 COLT. Think of the Bond Arms Deringer, the one I have shoots both .410 shot shells and .45 Colt. The "Mares Leg" pistol is a lever action pistol built from the same receivers used to build carbines and rifles. If you build it as a pistol and it is sold as a pistol there is no SBR paperwork, no tax stamp and it is not AOW. If you add anything to a "pistol" most likely it is now illegal and will be redefined as a SBR or AOW and without the $200 tax stamp will land you in jail. So don't add a pistol grip to a pistol and before you add anything else find out if it is legal first.

    I also have two AR-15 pistols with 10 inch barrels. They are NOT SBR's nor AOWs...they are pistols and no special paperwork is required.

    If the shot gun in the photo posted was built as a pistol then it is legal as is and does not require any special paperwork. I have seen many single and double barrel shot shell pistols for sale and they are legal as long as they were built as a pistol, sold as a pistol and not modified (such as by adding the forward "pistol grip").
    I'm pretty sure you are not entirely correct. I'm looking for the cite now; but I believe it must have a rifled barrel, and/or be capable of firing a pistol/rifle round to not be considered a short barreled shotgun.

    That's why the Judge and that derringer get away with it. Rifled barrels and capable of firing 45 long colt.

    Also; while trying to find the cite again, an AR-15 pistol or such is a pistol until you try to add a stock to it. Then it becomes an AOW. Silly silly federal laws. I think it's under the import laws somewhere.... Whoever finds it first get's a treat! LOL
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 12-02-2010 at 08:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passive101 View Post
    I'm wondering what the legalities of this are. I will leave my sword questions for another forum unless sometimes know the law as well.

    This picture is just an example of something I saw.
    http://www.hatchergun.com/images/Holster_1.JPG


    eta. I'm currently simply curious of legal/illegal.
    Carrying a long gun may cause problems. The gun is in your hand and your hand will be moving. In effect, you will be waving a gun around. In a hunting situation, carrying long guns is acceptable.

    A holstered handgun is not a problem for these reason that it is not in your hand - unless your really need it.

    Even though Wisconsin does not have a "brandishing" penalty, carrying a long gun would, IMHO, get you as close to disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct as you can be.

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    OCing long gun talk is technically a violation of rule 14, but since we're talking about legal 'shotgun' pistols and 'ar-15' style pistols, hopefully we'll avoid any deletions or closings.

    rcawdor, do you happen to remember any names of the double barrel shotshell pistols you mentioned? I've been looking for something like that for a long time and never been able to find anything.

    Also, I have a Bushmaster AR style pistol as well, but it only has a 7.25" barrel. A couple friends I've let shoot it in the past affectionately refer to it as "the fireball gun" on account of the beach ball sized fireball it makes. Never seen a holster for it, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Don View Post
    .............................Also, I have a Bushmaster AR style pistol as well, but it only has a 7.25" barrel. A couple friends I've let shoot it in the past affectionately refer to it as "the fireball gun" on account of the beach ball sized fireball it makes. Never seen a holster for it, though.
    Try using a single point sling and a BlackHawk weapons catch (i think thats what they call it). It works quite well for keeping weapon out of way while doing other things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NakedOne View Post
    Try using a single point sling and a BlackHawk weapons catch (i think thats what they call it). It works quite well for keeping weapon out of way while doing other things.
    thanks, i'll check it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Don View Post
    OCing long gun talk is technically a violation of rule 14, but since we're talking about legal 'shotgun' pistols and 'ar-15' style pistols, hopefully we'll avoid any deletions or closings.

    rcawdor, do you happen to remember any names of the double barrel shotshell pistols you mentioned? I've been looking for something like that for a long time and never been able to find anything.

    Also, I have a Bushmaster AR style pistol as well, but it only has a 7.25" barrel. A couple friends I've let shoot it in the past affectionately refer to it as "the fireball gun" on account of the beach ball sized fireball it makes. Never seen a holster for it, though.
    Colt FMJ Model DD

    Leinad .410/.45LC

    There's about four more. The Leinad I have seen in person and if I recall correctly, they are "rifled" in a very superficial way for the .45.

    Also note, SBRs, SBSs, AOW (only $5, not $200) are not uncommon in the state of WI. The laws cited above are preempted by NFA permission from the Feds to have them. So the blanket "it's illegal" is false if used in any sensible context where the state of WI isn't dictating laws for the entire planet.

    Do your research before you buy.

    Do your paperwork when you buy.

    Do more research before making changes.

    AOW covers the Serbu 12 gauge, which is NOT rifled. (The grip on the pump makes it an AOW.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by RR_Broccoli View Post
    Colt FMJ Model DD

    Leinad .410/.45LC

    There's about four more. The Leinad I have seen in person and if I recall correctly, they are "rifled" in a very superficial way for the .45.

    Also note, SBRs, SBSs, AOW (only $5, not $200) are not uncommon in the state of WI. The laws cited above are preempted by NFA permission from the Feds to have them. So the blanket "it's illegal" is false if used in any sensible context where the state of WI isn't dictating laws for the entire planet.

    Do your research before you buy.

    Do your paperwork when you buy.

    Do more research before making changes.

    AOW covers the Serbu 12 gauge, which is NOT rifled. (The grip on the pump makes it an AOW.)
    the $200 dollar is the tax not the fee

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    Quote Originally Posted by RR_Broccoli View Post
    (The grip on the pump makes it an AOW.)
    Are you sure about that? I would think the grip is irrelevant. What determines AOW is barrel length or overall length. Under 18" barrel = AOW, under 26" overall length = AOW.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Are you sure about that? I would think the grip is irrelevant. What determines AOW is barrel length or overall length. Under 18" barrel = AOW, under 26" overall length = AOW.
    Edited to add:
    I just realized you meant what made a shotgun an AOW, my bad. The following might not apply because I don't know about shotguns, but I'll leave it anyway.


    I know for sure if you add a front grip to an Ar type pistol it becomes an AOW, I'm pretty sure that applies to all pistols except that Thompson center thingy with the twenty some inch barrel. I think they got an exception just like they got an exception to convert a pistol to a rifle and back again.

    I didn't look up any of this so I could be making it up , don't take it for legal advise.
    Last edited by Jason in WI; 12-02-2010 at 12:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RR_Broccoli View Post
    Also note, SBRs, SBSs, AOW (only $5, not $200) are not uncommon in the state of WI. The laws cited above are preempted by NFA permission from the Feds to have them. So the blanket "it's illegal" is false if used in any sensible context where the state of WI isn't dictating laws for the entire planet.

    Do your research before you buy.

    Do your paperwork when you buy.

    Do more research before making changes.
    +1 Especially the the parts I made bold.

    Even though Wisconsin has some bad carry laws, we do have access to all the fun stuff a lot of people don't.

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    correct, sort of

    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Are you sure about that? I would think the grip is irrelevant. What determines AOW is barrel length or overall length. Under 18" barrel = AOW, under 26" overall length = AOW.
    Shotgun sort of. A 18" barreled shotgun with only a pistol group or folding stock has an overall length of approx 28". The action is 8" and the pistol grip is 4". The reason that the Serbu Super Shorty is taxed as a Any Other Weapon, much cheaper, and not as a Short Barreled Shotgun is that before modification it leaves the Mossberg factory with only a pistol grip and not a full stock. Otherwise it would be a SBS, so in that case the rear pistol grip determines that it becomes a AOW. The froward pistol grip is not relevant but the original rear grip is. I will also mention that attaching a forward pistol grip on a pistol makes an unregistered AOW so for those with light rails on their pistols keep the grips off.

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    Here's some Cite-age

    http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5320-8.pdf

    Should have pretty much everything that was talked about in here.
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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    I'm pretty sure you are not entirely correct. I'm looking for the cite now; but I believe it must have a rifled barrel, and/or be capable of firing a pistol/rifle round to not be considered a short barreled shotgun.

    That's why the Judge and that derringer get away with it. Rifled barrels and capable of firing 45 long colt.

    Also; while trying to find the cite again, an AR-15 pistol or such is a pistol until you try to add a stock to it. Then it becomes an AOW. Silly silly federal laws. I think it's under the import laws somewhere.... Whoever finds it first get's a treat! LOL
    Correct about the "rifled barrel" part. I was remiss in that! Thanks for the correction!

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by The Don View Post
    OCing long gun talk is technically a violation of rule 14, but since we're talking about legal 'shotgun' pistols and 'ar-15' style pistols, hopefully we'll avoid any deletions or closings.

    rcawdor, do you happen to remember any names of the double barrel shotshell pistols you mentioned? I've been looking for something like that for a long time and never been able to find anything.

    Also, I have a Bushmaster AR style pistol as well, but it only has a 7.25" barrel. A couple friends I've let shoot it in the past affectionately refer to it as "the fireball gun" on account of the beach ball sized fireball it makes. Never seen a holster for it, though.

    I am looking at the "shotgun" pistols as I type this. There is no description of the manufacturer, only that they chamber and shoot .410 shot shells AND .45 Colt so...I have to assume they do have rifled barrels IAW BATFE guidelines. I just downloaded the latest catalog in PDF from the company I bought many firearms from. If you would like I can email the catalog to you. You cannot log in to their site unless you are a registered FFL holder.

    I think you have my email address....check for a PM from me.

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