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Is it self-defense if the unmarked Police officer doesn't announce himself?

rickc1962

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
192
Location
Battle Mountain, NV.
If you fill your life is in danger I think it can even extend to uniformed LEO, case in point. about 16 years ago I went to elect. school in Albuquerque NM. and my wife and I were staying in a motel, one night while my wife was at work me and my daughter was in the room, she was asleep in one bed and I was watching TV from the other. All of a sudden the door flew open and I grabbed my Ruger which was under my pillow, the person coming in was LEO, he had his firearm drawn, he looked at me then at my daughter and then back at me, he said i`m sorry, holstered his firearm and closed the door. I got up holstered my firearm got dressed and walked outside, by the time I got outside thay had the bad guys handcuffed and was walking them down the hall, I seen the Officer that came in my room walked up and said "excuse me", he turned around to see what I needed, I enformed him it was my room he entered and I showed him my firearm, I told him that if he was not in uniform I would have shot him. He said he was glad I didn`t, he said he violated my 4th amendment, and I easly could have claimed self defence. I shook his hand and said what I did was called gun control. Thay left and I went back to my room.
 
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OldCurlyWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
907
Location
Oklahoma
If you fill your life is in danger I think it can even extend to uniformed LEO, case in point. about 16 years ago I went to elect. school in Albuquerque NM. and my wife and I were staying in a motel, one night while my wife was at work me and my daughter was in the room, she was asleep in one bed and I was watching TV from the other. All of a sudden the door flew open and I grabbed my Ruger which was under my pillow, the person coming in was LEO, he had his firearm drawn, he looked at me then at my daughter and then back at me, he said i`m sorry, holstered his firearm and closed the door. I got up holstered my firearm got dressed and walked outside, by the time I got outside thay had the bad guys handcuffed and was walking them down the hall, I seen the Officer that came in my room walked up and said "excuse me", he turned around to see what I needed, I enformed him it was my room he entered and I showed him my firearm, I told him that if he was not in uniform I would have shot him. He said he was glad I didn`t, he said he violated my 4th amendment, and I easly could have claimed self defence. I shook his hand and said what I did was called gun control. Thay left and I went back to my room.

Aren't you glad it ended so friendly?

That must have been an adrenaline pumper for a short while.

:cool:
 

rickc1962

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Messages
192
Location
Battle Mountain, NV.
Aren't you glad it ended so friendly?

That must have been an adrenaline pumper for a short while.

:cool:

YES I AM! it could have ended ugley, because I kept my firearm under my pillow, and thought before I reacted, we are both alive. I don`t think he know I had my hand on it until I stopped him on the breezeway, it was a long time ago but I thing there were two other LEOs in agreement with the first, maybe just one can`t remember. The funny thing was that my daughter never even woke up.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
YES I AM! it could have ended ugley, because I kept my firearm under my pillow, and thought before I reacted, we are both alive. I don`t think he know I had my hand on it until I stopped him on the breezeway, it was a long time ago but I thing there were two other LEOs in agreement with the first, maybe just one can`t remember. The funny thing was that my daughter never even woke up.

Wait but according to some police training I read and some posting by some LEO's here that can cost you your life. :p
 

sportrider

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
11
Location
Pueblo West,Co
I watched the clip and noticed something different, there was a marked state police car behind him. my guess is he was evading and finally gave up.
 

Kirbinator

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
903
Location
Middle of the map, Alabama
When you're in a vehicle the natural tendency is not to look back or behind you. This is why people are so "shocked" when they hear a "twip" or "wooo" and look back to see a squad car lit up like a christmas tree. If the rider of the bike were "evading", this would have made the evening news. Sportbikes are sport bikes for a reason -- they have an exceptional power to weight ratio matched or exceeded only by turbine-powered jet fighters.

Also note that the vehicle the police officer jumped out of did not feature any warning lights.
 
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SgtScott31

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
158
Location
Nashville
When you're in a vehicle the natural tendency is not to look back or behind you.

I thought driving 101 was to constantly check your mirrors?? I can tell you as a LEO that I can be in a completely unmarked Dodge Charger or Impala and most of the driving public is slowing down when I'm a good 200-300 yards behind them, so I would like to think most people do what they were taught in driving school and watch their backs. :p
 

Sc0tt

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
315
Location
Asheboro, NC
Ive seen the video they guy admitted he was show boating and never hard the cops chasing him, He said he would more than happily take the ticket. But the DA that tried to bring charges for posting that video to youtube is an idiot who needs to go play in traffic. I agree with the judge who dismissed the case:

"Those of us who are public officials and are entrusted with the power of the state are ultimately accountable to the public. When we exercise that power in public fora, we should not expect our actions to be shielded from public observation. 'Sed quis custodiet ipsos cutodes' ("Who watches the watchmen?”)."
-Circuit Court Judge Emory A. Plitt Jr

And I esp love the judges choice of latin quotation ;)
 

therealcombat

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2010
Messages
160
Location
Lolo, MT
I watched the clip and noticed something different, there was a marked state police car behind him. my guess is he was evading and finally gave up.

I would think from your name you would already know this, but you can't see **** in sport bike mirrors. If you look in your mirrors, all your see is your elbows. You have to physically move your head outward and your elbow inward to see what's behind you. In other words, you don't just passively catch a glimpse of what's behind you. You have to look.

When you're going fast, you watch what's ahead of you, not behind. When i say going fast, i mean 100+ which is really the only thing that would prompt a stop like this on a sport bike. Not to mention, when you're going fast, you're generally in a "tucked" position. If you're mirrors are adjusted for normal riding, and you're "tucked" the image you see in your mirrors is the sky, not the cop behind you.

I got pulled over on my bike a couple weeks ago. The only reason i saw the cop there was because i moved my elbow and looked.

I guess what I'm getting at here is, he could easily not have known about the cop behind him.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I believe you could (with extensive training) Of pulled your gun and shot him long before he "cleared leather"

Welcome ot OCDO James.

Don't see the benefit of playing quick draw - old story, there's always somebody faster - and it's no game with live ammo and people's lives.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
A lot of gun mythology comes from the B-westerns and TV westerns. Not only did they provide grist for the anti-gunner mills, they make some carriers want to don the white hat or to "slap leather."

In the real world (and in the real old west), guns rarely leave (or left) their leather in anger. Mere possession was and is sufficient to communicate one's willingness to defend himself, thereby, most of the time, accomplishing that defense.

Romanticizing carry is both sad and dangerous.
 

Motofixxer

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”

“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.

“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

“Story affirmed the right of self-defense by persons held illegally. In his own writings, he had admitted that ‘a situation could arise in which the checks-and-balances principle ceased to work and the various branches of government concurred in a gross usurpation.’ There would be no usual remedy by changing the law or passing an amendment to the Constitution, should the oppressed party be a minority. Story concluded, ‘If there be any remedy at all ... it is a remedy never provided for by human institutions.’ That was the ‘ultimate right of all human beings in extreme cases to resist oppression, and to apply force against ruinous injustice.’” (From Mutiny on the Amistad by Howard Jones, Oxford University Press, 1987, an account of the reading of the decision in the case by Justice Joseph Story of the Supreme Court.
 
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