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Thread: Reciprocity Issues

  1. #1
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    Question Reciprocity Issues

    Recently NM officials decided to revoke reciprocity with Utah permit holders. Apparently the excuse/reason is the range training that NM requires on their permit.

    With a Republican Governor being elected, it there any chance this can be reversed as it appears to be overzealous bunglecrat activity? Likewise is there any activity going on to pressure NM gov't to get this turned around? Not being a resident, I hold little to no sway with NM.

    Last I looked, NM was reviewing a bunch of reciprocity agreements for similar requirements. I suspect several more states will be removed from the reciprocity list?

    I would certainly consider getting a NM permit, but NM won't issue to out of state. So that leaves many of us out in the cold, and especially so now as we don't know which state to chase a permit in so we can carry in NM. Just plain nuts.

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    NM is an Open Carry Gold state. Just open carry (which by coincidence, is the topical method for this web forum).
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Wink

    Thanks for answering my question, wrightme.

    Yes, OC is certainly an option in NM and while I do OC, there are times I prefer not to. Further, if I have a valid permit, I can't be easily harrassed by an overzealous cop, -should I have the occasion to interface with one. Additionally, my DW will NOT OC (personal decisions ya know) and her valid out of state permit is no longer valid in NM, so she has to count on me to provide security...

    For example, if I'm travelling through on I-40 and come from Texas way, I MUST conceal carry through TX. As the Texas Troopers seem to enforce the 70 day/65night pretty tightly (got a warning last year at dusk for going 70), I won't risk OC'ing in my car there. I drive to get there, so stopping just to switch my rig is time I don't care to spend not moving.

    Just wondering if the situation has a hope of being changed with the new Gov. It's more of an inconvenience as there is a workaround. Of course, I would prefer to see Constitutional Carry...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobcat View Post
    Thanks for answering my question, wrightme.

    Yes, OC is certainly an option in NM and while I do OC, there are times I prefer not to. Further, if I have a valid permit, I can't be easily harrassed by an overzealous cop, -should I have the occasion to interface with one. Additionally, my DW will NOT OC (personal decisions ya know) and her valid out of state permit is no longer valid in NM, so she has to count on me to provide security...

    For example, if I'm travelling through on I-40 and come from Texas way, I MUST conceal carry through TX. As the Texas Troopers seem to enforce the 70 day/65night pretty tightly (got a warning last year at dusk for going 70), I won't risk OC'ing in my car there. I drive to get there, so stopping just to switch my rig is time I don't care to spend not moving.

    Just wondering if the situation has a hope of being changed with the new Gov. It's more of an inconvenience as there is a workaround. Of course, I would prefer to see Constitutional Carry...
    You are well within your rights to conceal carry while in your car in NM. You can carry any weapon however you want in whatever condition you want in your vehicle. But once you step out you can not conceal on your person.

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    Reciprocity

    An Arizona permit may be a way around reciprocity with New Mexico. Check the Arizona site, as you MAY be able to get an Arizona permit simply with an application, fingerprint cards and $$$. I have an NM CCW permit, but have issues carrying in other states. After the ruling on UT permits, Public Safety claimed they are reviewing other reciprocity arrangements, but as far as I know, they only have a written agreement with one state. Other states (Ohio for one), which NM accepts do not accept NM permits, because DPS has not formalized the agreement. Not one agreement, since the UT press release. I can't figure out exactly why this is so complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMBill View Post
    An Arizona permit may be a way around reciprocity with New Mexico. Check the Arizona site, as you MAY be able to get an Arizona permit simply with an application, fingerprint cards and $$$. I have an NM CCW permit, but have issues carrying in other states. After the ruling on UT permits, Public Safety claimed they are reviewing other reciprocity arrangements, but as far as I know, they only have a written agreement with one state. Other states (Ohio for one), which NM accepts do not accept NM permits, because DPS has not formalized the agreement. Not one agreement, since the UT press release. I can't figure out exactly why this is so complicated.
    There are many states which currently accept NM's license. Go to handgunlaw.us to see the map. The UT deal doesn't change that.

    AFA the AZ license, AZ requires training to take place in the state itself. It's not like FL- with FL you can do it all by mail, you don't have to be there for anything if you have a current state license from another state. That's probably the better way to go.

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    AZ Non-Resident Permits

    Arizona statutes have a provision for obtaining a CCW permit without an Arizona training class, if you already have a CCW permit from another state. Info available at the AZ DPS website:

    http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concea...ermits/Obtain/

    Alternate Applicant Instructions.
    If you possess documentation, as stipulated in ARS § 13-3112(E)(6)(b-d), you may qualify to obtain a permit without attending the DPS approved firearms-safety training course. Please contact the Concealed Weapons Permit Unit to obtain an application packet.

    If you read through the statute mentioned above, a copy of your CCW permit issued by another state, fingerprint cards and a fee are all it takes. Contact AZ DPS if you're interested. Remember, AZ now allows concealed carry without a permit, so I wouldn't expect their permitting rules to be THAT stringent. It would appear that one could get an AZ permit with a UT permit, then be free to carry in NM, but consult AZ DPS, if you're interested.

    If you go to the Handgunlaw website, you can build a map of reciprocal states by inputting the state(s) where your permit(s) was issued. If you add AZ to NM, you pick up a good part of the South, OH, PA, WV and maybe others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMBill View Post
    If you read through the statute mentioned above, a copy of your CCW permit issued by another state, fingerprint cards and a fee are all it takes.
    It also says that the AZ DPS must approve of the other state's training requirements. So depending on which state he has a permit from, AZ may still not issue. Basically it sounds like AZ has the same concerns as NM- they do not want to issue to people who cannot demonstrate somewhat equitable training.

    AZ has 8 hours of classroom and also shooting requirements. If UT does not have something similar there is a chance it could be denied. I spoke to them at length about this and they would need to review things on a case by case basis as the law changes are still so recent.

    I have researched FL and it does not seem any more involved than other states, and they don't seem to have the same prerequisites.

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    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    It also says that the AZ DPS must approve of the other state's training requirements. So depending on which state he has a permit from, AZ may still not issue. Basically it sounds like AZ has the same concerns as NM- they do not want to issue to people who cannot demonstrate somewhat equitable training.

    AZ has 8 hours of classroom and also shooting requirements. If UT does not have something similar there is a chance it could be denied. I spoke to them at length about this and they would need to review things on a case by case basis as the law changes are still so recent.

    I have researched FL and it does not seem any more involved than other states, and they don't seem to have the same prerequisites.
    That's why my original post said "MAY" and I suggested people check with DPS. Section 13-3112 says:

    6. Has ever satisfactorily completed a firearms safety training program authorized by the department of public safety pursuant to subsection N, paragraph 1 of this section or has ever demonstrated competence with a firearm as prescribed by subsection N, paragraph 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 of this section and provides adequate documentation that the person has satisfactorily completed a training program or demonstrated competence with a firearm in any state or political subdivision in the United States.

    N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:
    ...
    7. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

    My reading of the statute sections above leads me to believe that Arizona DPS does not need to approve the training (note the "or" in the second line), but there are, no doubt, administrative regs of which I'm unaware. Once again, my advice is to contact AZ DPS and find out how things work in each instance. Just trying to help out here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMBill View Post
    Just trying to help out here.
    Understood. As am I.

    We are on the same side. My understanding is that there were instructors that were practically handing out UT training certs so people could essentially bypass the NM licensing requirements. If they hadn't been pulling that stuff the issue may not have come into being.

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    Reciprocity Agreements

    I travel to Ohio now and then. New Mexico recognizes Ohio permits, but the reverse is not true. I emailed the Ohio Attorney General's Office and, to my surprise, received a phone call from them about an hour later. They explained that they will not recognize other state's permits without a written reciprocity agreement. They said that they were waiting on NM DPS.

    These agreements are pretty short and sweet -- we will honor your permits, if you honor ours and if we make any changes to our permit requirements, we'll let you know, blah, blah, blah. Ohio has a boilerplate agreement, which has been signed by 20 states.

    New Mexico DPS, when they announced in April that they were no longer honoring Utah permits said:

    "The state will also review the status of eighteen other states currently recognized on an informal
    basis, with the intent of entering into written agreements with these states to ensure compliance
    with New Mexico law. These states are: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Florida,
    Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio,
    Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wyoming."

    Eight month's later and...still waiting. Out of the above-mentioned states, Ohio, Delaware, N. Carolina, N. Dakota, S. Carolina do not currently reciprocate and recognize New Mexico permits -- so these would be a good place for DPS to start. The wheels of government turn slowly. Our Governor-elect is a concealed carry permit holder, so perhaps she can get them off the dime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMBill View Post
    I travel to Ohio now and then. New Mexico recognizes Ohio permits, but the reverse is not true. I emailed the Ohio Attorney General's Office and, to my surprise, received a phone call from them about an hour later. They explained that they will not recognize other state's permits without a written reciprocity agreement. They said that they were waiting on NM DPS.
    Bill,

    Have you considered following your own advice and getting an AZ permit as well? It is good in OH.

    I did this for a couple of reasons. One, to be covered in all the additional states. Two, to be sure that when renewal time comes I don't have a problem if NM allows my permit to expire which has been happening to several that I know of.
    Last edited by AH.74; 12-09-2010 at 07:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMBill View Post
    N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:
    ...
    7. A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

    My reading of the statute sections above leads me to believe that Arizona DPS does not need to approve the training (note the "or" in the second line), but there are, no doubt, administrative regs of which I'm unaware. Once again, my advice is to contact AZ DPS and find out how things work in each instance. Just trying to help out here.
    AZ will accept any state permit that requires training. When I contacted them in Sept I was told "just include a copy of your PA permit with the application." I informed them that my home state of PA doesn't require training but I do have one for CT which does..."that's fine then send a copy of that one."

    they will also accept Hunter safety...and NRA classes. And it's much cheaper than FL....and awesome reciprocity.

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    Yes, I Have

    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    Bill,

    Have you considered following your own advice and getting an AZ permit as well? It is good in OH.

    I did this for a couple of reasons. One, to be covered in all the additional states. Two, to be sure that when renewal time comes I don't have a problem if NM allows my permit to expire which has been happening to several that I know of.
    Yeah, I have, AH. That's why I was reading through their regs and procedures. Have been procrastinating through the holidays, but plan to get on it after the first of the year. You do pick up a number of states, which makes it worthwhile. Hadn't considered the renewal angle (as I just received my permit this year, after moving to NM), but that makes sense, too. Now, if I could only figure out an angle on California...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    AZ will accept any state permit that requires training. When I contacted them in Sept I was told "just include a copy of your PA permit with the application." I informed them that my home state of PA doesn't require training but I do have one for CT which does..."that's fine then send a copy of that one."

    they will also accept Hunter safety...and NRA classes. And it's much cheaper than FL....and awesome reciprocity.
    Good info -- thanks.

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    Recently NM officials decided to revoke reciprocity with Utah permit holders. Apparently the excuse/reason is the range training that NM requires on their permit.
    Our reciprocity/honors are established with states that have laws and requirements "substantially similar NM CHL requirements". One of the major requirements in NM statutes is a proficiency demonstration and certification from a Certified Instructor. I am one of the people that got reciprocity added to our law. I am the person that submitted the list of states that met all our requirements - or were "substantially similar" at that time. UT was NOT on that original list. It was added because there was a move to work with our neighboring states. UT never should have been added and adding them created a violation of our laws. Essentially, if someone with a UT permit accidentially injured someone here in NM, the state was open to a lawsuit for not upholding our own laws.

    Further, it is also a fact that state residents were circumventing our CHL program by picking up a "gimmee" license from UT - which is honored in NM - and bragging about how slick they were even to NM DPS. We had a choice, drop UT or refuse our residents with licenses from other honored states.

    Perhaps if you read out statutes, you'd have a better understanding of why UT got dropped. It was the best thing the state could do to protect itself, and our residents.

    With a Republican Governor being elected, it there any chance this can be reversed as it appears to be overzealous bunglecrat activity? Likewise is there any activity going on to pressure NM gov't to get this turned around? Not being a resident, I hold little to no sway with NM.
    Unless UT falls into compliance with NM training statues - it isn't happening.

    Lastly, you need to know that the Gov does not make law, just signs legislation into law. The State Congress passes legislation, which is then submitted to the Gov to sign into law.

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    Thanks, Steve

    I understand why UT was dropped from the reciprocity list and the reasoning behind the reciprocity training requirements. On the other hand, I would like to see some progress on the reciprocity agreements with other states. As I stated in an earlier post, the Ohio Atty Genl's Office told me that they are waiting on a signed agreement from NM, so that they may recognize NM's permit (NM does recognize OH, but not the other way around).

    The DPS stated that they were working on written reciprocity agreements, when they made the press release re dropping reciprocity with UT. "New Mexico Department of Public Safety is reevaluating the status of eighteen other states currently recognized on an informal basis, with the intent of entering into written agreements with these states to ensure compliance. These states are: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wyoming."

    Any insight into how this process is coming along? Once again, appreciate all the legislative work you've done towards rational handgun laws in this state.

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    As noted before, the CCU is severely understaffed. Like many states, NM has money issues. That means no more hires. They're keeping up with their license application pretty well but this kind of negotiation 1) takes time in the first place and 2) falls in place after fulfiling new and renewing license application requirements - which continue to increase.

    Be patient.

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    As the Vulture Said...

    As the vulture said, "Patience my a$$, I'm gonna kill something". Finally bit the bullet and sent my application, prints, copy of my NM permit and $$ off to the good people at AZ DPS. AN Arizona CCW permit adds several states to the reciprocity list.

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    I think NM jumped the gun on Utah - very few states require range training to get a concealed handgun license, e.g., Virginia, and NM still accepts them.

    Weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveaikens View Post
    Our reciprocity/honors are established with states that have laws and requirements "substantially similar NM CHL requirements". One of the major requirements in NM statutes is a proficiency demonstration and certification from a Certified Instructor. I am one of the people that got reciprocity added to our law. I am the person that submitted the list of states that met all our requirements - or were "substantially similar" at that time. UT was NOT on that original list. It was added because there was a move to work with our neighboring states. UT never should have been added and adding them created a violation of our laws. Essentially, if someone with a UT permit accidentially injured someone here in NM, the state was open to a lawsuit for not upholding our own laws.

    Further, it is also a fact that state residents were circumventing our CHL program by picking up a "gimmee" license from UT - which is honored in NM - and bragging about how slick they were even to NM DPS. We had a choice, drop UT or refuse our residents with licenses from other honored states.

    Perhaps if you read out statutes, you'd have a better understanding of why UT got dropped. It was the best thing the state could do to protect itself, and our residents.



    Unless UT falls into compliance with NM training statues - it isn't happening.

    Lastly, you need to know that the Gov does not make law, just signs legislation into law. The State Congress passes legislation, which is then submitted to the Gov to sign into law.
    Withdrawn.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 02-21-2011 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I think NM jumped the gun on Utah - very few states require range training to get a concealed handgun license, e.g., Virginia, and NM still accepts them.

    Weird.
    I have never been a fan of requiring range training for a permit other that I think FL used to require you to fire one round in the presence of the Instructor and not hit the Instructor or yourself. To me range qualification is greatly overrated especially this mess about having to qualify with each gun you want to carry. This is not to say that I am for permits but have to face the facts that they are required in some places so I have to live with that until it can be overturned. I do think that before you carry a gun you should at least know what is meant by self-defense and which end of the gun the bullet comes out of. Now how you want to assure that is up to you and right now we aren't doing a very good job of it.

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    http://www.bouldercounty.org/find/li...permitinfo.pdf

    In addition to the completed application form you must submit:
    • A $52.50 processing fee in the form of a cashier’s check or money order, made payable to
    the Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI). Do not obtain funds that have an expiration
    date. This fee pays for a state and national criminal history check (fingerprints) and for an
    Insta-check (NICS) per Statute. This is required for all regular civilian applicants.
    • A $100.00 processing fee in the form of a cashier’s check, money order, or personal check,
    made payable to Boulder County Sheriff’s Office. This fee pays for forms, ID cards, local
    criminal history checks, and other administrative costs.
    • Proof of residency. (Colorado Driver’s License, Colorado ID Card or Military ID Card and
    Duty Orders)
    Documentary evidence demonstrating competence with a handgun as specified in section 18-
    12-203 (1) (h) of the Colorado Revised Statute. (See TRAINING REQUIREMENTS
    SECTION for further details.)


    EDIT: Thanks Gunslinger.
    Last edited by steveaikens; 02-21-2011 at 12:54 PM.

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    Due to a number of states dropping UT, UT has made a change to their Statue that requires out of state residents to possess a permit from their home state, before they will be issued a UT Non-Resident permit.

    http://le.utah.gov/~2011/bills/sbillamd/sb0036s01.pdf

    8 General Description:
    9 This bill amends provisions of the Concealed Firearm Act related to the issuance of
    10 concealed firearm permits to nonresidents.
    11 Highlighted Provisions:
    12 This bill:
    13 requires a nonresident applicant for a concealed firearm permit to hold a current
    14 concealed firearm or concealed weapon permit from the applicant's state of
    15 residency that recognizes the validity of the Utah permit in that state or has
    16 reciprocity with the Utah concealed firearm permit law; and
    17 requires a nonresident applicant to pay an additional $5 processing fee for the
    18 issuance of the permit.


    This recent change will satisfy all states that have objected to UT issuing licenses without a handgun qualification and prevent applicants from circumventing their resident state statutes by receiving a UT permit without meeting the requirements of their home states.

    I have contacted NM DPS and am opening a dialog to step up the reciprocity agreement process and try to work with them administratively to make improvements through our Administrative Code, rather than legislatively. DPS has some issues with things that we can fix for them that are firearms friendly and we obviously have some things we want improved that working together, we can improve outside the legislative process.

    PLEASE DO NOT CONTACT DPS with suggestions or comments. They have a lot on their plate and fielding email and phone comments is time consuming, and generally solves anything on an individual basis. With their new Director, a lot is happening behind the scenes that is improving how and what they can/are doing. One immediately noticable result is the time to issue licenses. When I last spoke with the CCU - I was told there were applications in the drawer that were 14 days old, awaiting printing and mailing. From a couple posts here recently, that improvement is being seen in several cases.

    Steve Aikens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    There is no proficiency training in CO, just classroom. And we have reciprocity with NM.
    Quote Originally Posted by steveaikens View Post
    Not exactly correct:

    http://www.bouldercounty.org/find/li...permitinfo.pdf

    In addition to the completed application form you must submit:
    • A $52.50 processing fee in the form of a cashier’s check or money order, made payable to
    the Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI). Do not obtain funds that have an expiration
    date. This fee pays for a state and national criminal history check (fingerprints) and for an
    Insta-check (NICS) per Statute. This is required for all regular civilian applicants.
    • A $100.00 processing fee in the form of a cashier’s check, money order, or personal check,
    made payable to Boulder County Sheriff’s Office. This fee pays for forms, ID cards, local
    criminal history checks, and other administrative costs.
    • Proof of residency. (Colorado Driver’s License, Colorado ID Card or Military ID Card and
    Duty Orders)
    Documentary evidence demonstrating competence with a handgun as specified in section 18-
    12-203 (1) (h) of the Colorado Revised Statute. (See TRAINING REQUIREMENTS
    SECTION for further details.)
    and from the statute section:

    (h) Demonstrates competence with a handgun by submitting:




    (I) Evidence of experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competitions or current military service;

    (II) Evidence that, at the time the application is submitted, the applicant is a certified instructor;

    (III) Proof of honorable discharge from a branch of the United States armed forces within the three years preceding submittal of the application;

    (IV) Proof of honorable discharge from a branch of the United States armed forces that reflects pistol qualifications obtained within the ten years preceding submittal of the application;

    (V) A certificate showing retirement from a Colorado law enforcement agency that reflects pistol qualifications obtained within the ten years preceding submittal of the application; or

    (VI) A training certificate from a handgun training class obtained within the ten years preceding submittal of the application. The applicant shall submit the original training certificate or a photocopy thereof that includes the original signature of the class instructor. In obtaining a training certificate from a handgun training class, the applicant shall have discretion in selecting which handgun training class to complete.
    Kind of hard to demonstrate competence without actually handling a gun....although (VI) gives a lot of leeway...

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