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Thread: Maverick #411 and OC.

  1. #1
    Regular Member ThatOneChick's Avatar
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    Maverick #411 and OC.

    Been going to Maverick store #411 (5153 S Adams Avenue, Washington Terrace 801-475-5177) since it opened--about a year. Always OCed in the store, had quite a few conversations with the employees about OC and what they themselves carry. Lots of Weber County Sheriffs hang out there and I have spoken with them often with absolutely no problems.

    Last week, I was stopped by a Weber County sheriff who insisted OCing loaded with permit was against the law. I carry a pamphlet that cites UCA 76-10-523 (amongst other codes [http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_052300.htm]) which states permit holders are exempt from UCA 76-10-505 (http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050500.htm). After being detained for questioning and threatened with a citation, the sheriff finally let me leave without incident.

    Today, I went into Maverick again to fill my car up with fuel. I was promptly followed out by the store manager who has informed me that Maverick Corp says they don't allow the carrying of firearms on their property because there have been customer complaints. Has anyone heard this before? I've contacted Corp and left a message with the Customer Service Rep for Northern Utah (Customer Service 1-800-789-4455) and am hoping for a call back soon. I'm just curious why all of the sudden I'm having problems carrying at Maverick when I've never had an incident before. If this has been Maverick's policy all this time, why isn't anyone informed on it?
    Last edited by ThatOneChick; 12-03-2010 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Typed Country instead of County. =)

  2. #2
    Regular Member Kloutier's Avatar
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    I have not heard that before. I have OC Mavericks before with no issue.

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    Any reply yet?

  4. #4
    Regular Member ThatOneChick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    Any reply yet?
    Sorry, no. I'm going to call them again tomorrow and hopefully I can get a hold of someone. Will let you guys know what's going on.

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    That is very strange I've OCed at that Maverick and many others in Ogden many times??
    Fortunately for me I have moved back to Idaho. And am unable to give you any support other than moral support.
    I would suspect the deputy had a bit of a chat with the manager? I had your same discussion with one of the OCPD LEO! With the same verbiage you stated??? MMMM interesting?????
    Keep up the good fight!!!! This ridiculous (OPINION ENFORCEMENT) by a small handful of LEO can not be tolerated now or ever!!!!!!
    I find it very interesting that LEO cannot be held legally responsible for not protecting all of us. How do any of them think they get to say we cannot protect our selves however we see fit???? Be it through intimidation or otherwise..
    Even that aside it is our right to carry a gun anyway we wish!!

  6. #6
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caverat View Post
    That is very strange I've OCed at that Maverick and many others in Ogden many times??
    Fortunately for me I have moved back to Idaho. And am unable to give you any support other than moral support.
    I would suspect the deputy had a bit of a chat with the manager? I had your same discussion with one of the OCPD LEO! With the same verbiage you stated??? MMMM interesting?????
    Keep up the good fight!!!! This ridiculous (OPINION ENFORCEMENT) by a small handful of LEO can not be tolerated now or ever!!!!!!
    I find it very interesting that LEO cannot be held legally responsible for not protecting all of us. How do any of them think they get to say we cannot protect our selves however we see fit???? Be it through intimidation or otherwise..
    Even that aside it is our right to carry a gun anyway we wish!!
    It is not entirely true that LEOs who do their own interpretation of Utah Law cannot be made to see the light. Call Utah BCI and ask to speak with an Investigator and explain what happened. UHP will then "educate" the LEO.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member ThatOneChick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    It is not entirely true that LEOs who do their own interpretation of Utah Law cannot be made to see the light. Call Utah BCI and ask to speak with an Investigator and explain what happened. UHP will then "educate" the LEO.
    I filed a complaint against the Weber County deputies. Their lieutenant gave me a call back and asked what I had hoped with the complaint. I told him I just wanted the officers re-educated about the law. He said that it was already done. One problem down.

    Earlier today, my mom told me about a conversation she had with her local LEO (Ogden). My mother asked about the whole open carry loaded stuff. The officer told her that he's heard of people getting their CCWP revoked for open carry loaded and if he knew someone was OC loaded w/ permit, he'd try to cite. Ugh! Plan to call BCI tomorrow and ask what the "Official" stance is. I know Utah law gives permit holders right to loaded carry and all that but, if the officer is correct in saying BCI revoked CCWP because of OC loaded, that's frightening. =O

    Called Maverick Corp today again. Got voicemail again. Left another message. Hoping for a call back soon. I'll give them until Tuesday to return. I religiously went to Maverick for my gas and convenient stops. Not any more after this mess.

    @caverat -- Thanks for the moral support. Heaven knows I need it lol.

  8. #8
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Contact Info

    Hi "That one chick",

    Here are some contacts for you from your friendly neighborhood Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor. The contacts are for two Utah Highway Patrol Officers assigned to BCI as Firearms Investigators. It is their job to investigate improper use of a firearm by a permit holder and also to investigate citizen complaints.

    Phil Leiker
    Firearms Investigator II
    Utah Bureau Of Criminal Identification / Utah Highway Patrol
    801-965-4485
    pleiker@uatah.gov

    Jeff Dunn
    Firearms Investigator II
    Utah Bureau of Criminal Investigation / Utah Highway Patrol
    801-957-8512

    For other information or to obtain a current copy of the Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Course Curriculum go to: http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/ - the CFP course is an excellent "one stop shop" for Utah and Federal Firearms Law. Utah BCI works hard to insure that Utah Law Enforcement Officers know the law and they will want to know about any LEOs that do not.

    Having said that, the right to Open Carry is not absolute. A person cannot carry in a Gun Free School Zone, even if "unloaded" under Utah law (unless they remain in their car). The act of open carry cannot create or contribute to a nuisance, defined as any condition presenting a danger to human life (76-10-801) nor can a person carrying openly draw or exhibit a dangerous weapon in a threatening, angry or menacing manner (76-10-506) or with the intention of assaulting another person (76-10-507). If a person who possessed a valid CFP was arrested for open carry, it may have been the case that the person violated one of the above. Or, the LEO who told the story was telling a dated anecdote from a time well before current Utah Law.

    I strongly encourage you to take the Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Course (if eligible to do so). And I likewise encourage you to obtain formal firearms training from an accredited instructor. Unlike my home state of Wisconsin, it is fortunate that Utah is very well saturated with competent, qualified, and accredited instructors. If I can be of any assistance, please do not hesitate to PM me.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Snip...

    Having said that, the right to Open Carry is not absolute. A person cannot carry in a Gun Free School Zone, even if "unloaded" under Utah law (unless they remain in their car). The act of open carry cannot create or contribute to a nuisance, defined as any condition presenting a danger to human life (76-10-801) nor can a person carrying openly draw or exhibit a dangerous weapon in a threatening, angry or menacing manner (76-10-506) or with the intention of assaulting another person (76-10-507).

    ...Snip
    I will disagree with the tone of the above paragraph....
    Without a permit on may not carry in any way in a UTAH GFSZ-- this we agree upon (exception noted for vehicle carry AS LONG AS ONE DOES NOT LEAVE THE VEHICLE ARMED!)

    Once one has been issued a Utah Concealed carry permit, the permitee is exempted from several regulations INCLUDING THE PROHIBITION ON CARRYING IN A SCHOOL ZONE. The permit does NOT REQUIRE CONCEALMENT!---- show me in the law where it does require concealment, Please. Again, the permit does not require concealment but ALLOWS one to conceal and to carry a loaded firearm. The state statute that prohibits carry of a firearm in the Utah GFSZ itself EXEMPTS a permit holder from the law. See http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050505.htm Please see (3)(a). Also, no where does this statute require concealment OR talk about a concealed weapon ONLY "Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501,..."

    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

    Amended by Chapter 203, 2003 General Session

    There have been some claims by certain College / University LEO's and administrators that seem to threaten one with a disturbance of school functions or activities merely as a result of a permit holder openly carrying a firearm within the confines of the Utah GFSZ. If the actions one is engaged in by themselves don't raise to the level of "disturbance" or "interference" THEN JUST HOW DOES THE ADDITION OF A LEGALLY CARRIED FIREARM MAKE IT SO?

    sentence 2... Nuisance actions, similar to Disorderly conduct (in my mind anyway). Personally, I think it is a travesty and miscarriage of justice for one to be charged with either the nuisance ordinance or Disorderly Conduct MERELY because they had a firearm in their possession. I am working out how best to phrase this next part so please bear with me....

    Take a situation--- any situation. IF the person's actions don't raise to the level of nuisance or Disorderly conduct by themselves then HOW IN THE H*** DOES THE PRESENCE OF A LEGALLY CARRIED HOLSTERED FIREARM JUSTIFY THE CHARGE?
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 12-09-2010 at 09:00 PM.

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    The store on 11400 s & 700 Sandy/Draper

    They have had no problem with me OCing for 2 years, or any other Maverick Store. If any store that should be cool with OCing a Store name "Maverick" should be fine with OCing.

    Let us know what you find out, if it is their company policy.
    Utah Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor
    NRA Pistol Instructor & RSO

    Lover of Freedom

  11. #11
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Nowhere in my post does it say that one must carry concealed if one has a permit. Indeed, having a permit allows one to open carry with a round in the chamber (not allowed without a permit).

    The English "the right to carry is not absolute" comes from the most recent BCI Instructor Course. It is found on Slide 103 and goes on to cite the statutes I have cited.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    "A person cannot carry in a Gun Free School Zone, even if "unloaded" under Utah law (unless they remain in their car)." quoting, jpm84092.

    The above was what I had an issue with as it seems to suggest this is an absolute and follows immediately after the comment of "our right to carry is not absolute."

    I am merely suggesting with internal cites to authority the it is FULLY legal in Utah to carry in a Utah GFSZ IF ONE HAS A PERMIT!

    Carry on!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 12-10-2010 at 05:59 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Hi Joe,

    I apologize if I was less than clear. I should have written what I did with "without a valid Utah concealed firearm permit" to make it clear that a Citizen cannot carry open or concealed in a GFSZ - without a valid Utah Concealed Firearm Permit. My Bad.

    I agree, it is fully legal to carry open or concealed in a Federal GFSZ, even in "Condition 1", if the person has a current and valid Utah Concealed Firearm Permit.

    Jim
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  14. #14
    Regular Member ThatOneChick's Avatar
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    Talked to BCI just now. They've confirmed that I am legal to open carry loaded with permit. I knew this already but, better safe than sorry. Still no call back from Maverick. My last attempt at contact will be tomorrow then I'm giving up on them. If anyone else would like to call Maverick and see if you guys might get a hold of someone, that'd be awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post

    Jeff Dunn
    Firearms Investigator II
    Utah Bureau of Criminal Investigation / Utah Highway Patrol
    801-957-8512
    FWIW based solely on my personal experiences with Dunn is he's an uncooperative a-hole. He's one of them that will enforce what he feels, and not what the law states (or enforce what the law doesn't state that he can). If anyone else has better personal experience it would be great to hear, otherwise my opinion of him is less than pleasing.
    Last edited by D94R; 01-19-2011 at 01:32 AM.

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    Hey all! My sis-in-law is a district something or other manager for Maverick. I'll ask her if she has heard anything like this from corporate.

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    Talked to my SIL, and she said there hasn't been anything that has come down from corporate like this. She also added that if there was a policy change like this that 90% of the store managers wouldn't enforce it.

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