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Thread: St. Joseph's hospital not anti gun

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    St. Joseph's hospital not anti gun

    So I'm at St. Joseph's hospital because my wife is about to have another baby. I ccd here the last time we had a child and this time I made sure to check for sinage. I can't believe that there's no metal detectors, no signs, and they even have free wifi. I like this hospital.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Burst your bubble...

    Sorry to burst your bubble... but most hospitals do not have a metal detector.

    The Franscican system (St Joseph, St Claire, St Francis and such....) and other hospitals in WA:

    Harborview does have one but typically only use it when they put the hospital on "modified lockdown" during evening/nights and weekends.

    As for signage you won't typically see any for the main part of the hospitals but you may see them more in the ER entrances.

    All hospitals are "gun free zones" and will ask you to leave or place your firearm in the your vehicle so concealed means concealed.

    As for WiFi - all hospitals are moving to some form of wireless connections to do their internal connections of becoming less paper (charts, etc).

    Congrats - on the baby to be!


    FYI:
    Do not OC at a hospital - the hospital personnel will call 911 and you will be asked to leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldkim View Post
    SNIP...

    FYI:
    Do not OC at a hospital - the hospital personnel will call 911 and you will be asked to leave.
    For the record, I work at a hospital (Adult Critical Care as a Registered Nurse) and inspite of the "NO WEAPONS" signs on all the doors THAT HAVE NO LEGAL STANDING here in Utah, I WILL NOT BE CALLING 911 OR EVEN SECURITY FOR A PROPERLY CARRIED HOLSTERED FIREARM!

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    Good point...

    But you are in Utah. This is a WA thread.

    Yes, in Washington it is not "illegal" per se but you can be asked to leave the grounds. Once you do not comply with the request to leave - police will be called if they haven't been already and you will be escorted off by the police.

    Then trespass can be used when you have been asked not to return....

    So again for CC - concealed means concealed. For OC why invite all the negative attention?

  5. #5
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    I definately would not risk OCing here because I'd like to make sure I see my baby be born. I don't recall seeing signs when I came to the ER here earlier this year though. I was more making a comparison to a recent thread involving TG where they did have metal detectors.
    Last edited by tombrewster421; 12-03-2010 at 06:30 PM.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    For the record, I work at a hospital (Adult Critical Care as a Registered Nurse) and inspite of the "NO WEAPONS" signs on all the doors THAT HAVE NO LEGAL STANDING here in Utah, I WILL NOT BE CALLING 911 OR EVEN SECURITY FOR A PROPERLY CARRIED HOLSTERED FIREARM!

    Interesting...can you cite the particular law or code?

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    Regular Member WinchesterModel12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    I definately would not risk OCing here because I'd like to make sure I see my baby be born. I don't recall seeing signs when I came to the ER here earlier this year though. I was more making a comparison to a recent thread involving TG where they did have metal detectors.
    Only the ER has the metal detectors, I recently went to TG and had my vehicle parked by the valet and wasn't about to leave my firearm in it. Walked right in (CC of course) and had no problems.
    If guns kill people......then all of mine are defective........ UNCLE TED

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinchesterModel12 View Post
    Only the ER has the metal detectors, I recently went to TG and had my vehicle parked by the valet and wasn't about to leave my firearm in it. Walked right in (CC of course) and had no problems.
    That seems a little silly when you consider the fact that you can get to the ER from other parts of the hospital. What exactly are they doing other than inconveniencing everyone.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    So why only at one location (metal detectors)...

    "Visiting hours" go into effect and the hospitals closes down the main and other entrances for security.

    Since the ER's are 24/7 operations that becomes the funnel point for entry after hours or during weekends depending on the set up of that hospital.

    During the day and regular hours the hospitals have lots of entry points. During "after hours" they like to keep that down as much as possible.

    And Yes if you know the layout of the hospital some can get through even after hours. They do have staff entrances too but you'll typically need badge access to use those.

    Sidenote:
    I keep forgetting about TG having one too. TG is "combined" TG (adult) and MaryBridge (children) ER's

    Also interesting since St Joseph is so closer to the Hill Top area... Both share Trauma duty - alternating each day to cover major trauma's in the area.

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    My best friend is an ARNP and works for the Franciscan Medical Group, and as has been said before, their no-weapons policy is not posted everywhere, so concealed means concealed. Congrats on the newbie!

    -G20

  11. #11
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G20-IWB24/7 View Post
    My best friend is an ARNP and works for the Franciscan Medical Group, and as has been said before, their no-weapons policy is not posted everywhere, so concealed means concealed. Congrats on the newbie!

    -G20
    Thanks, this is number 3 for me. He will be my namesake. Alan Thomas, my name is Thomas Alan so I switched it up a little.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    Interesting...can you cite the particular law or code?
    In Utah that standard is: IF there is NOT a Law making something ILLEGAL it is by definition LEGAL.

    Many in the Utah forum have looked and have been UNABLE to find ANY law that would make ANY sign on ANY location OTHER THAN Certain specific locations such as a Courthouses, secure portions of Jails, secure portions of Mental health facilities, Secure portions of an airport, schools, Federal properties and post offices (last 2 based on Federal Statues). certain Churches may prohibit by sign or other options (infraction) and a sign or verbal notification at a private home.

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05_071000.htm
    53-5-710. Cross-references to concealed firearm permit restrictions.
    A person with a permit to carry a concealed firearm may not carry a concealed firearm in the following locations:
    (1) any secure area prescribed in Section 76-10-523.5 in which firearms are prohibited and notice of the prohibition posted;
    (2) in any airport secure area as provided in Section 76-10-529; or
    (3) in any house of worship or in any private residence where dangerous weapons are prohibited as provided in Section 76-10-530.

    Amended by Chapter 366, 1999 General Session

    The most that they could ATTEMPT to pursue someone who REFUSED TO LEAVE for whatever reason when asked to leave would be a criminal trespassing charge. Look closely at the defense to prosecution (4) (a) and (b).

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_06_020600.htm
    76-6-206. Criminal trespass.
    (1) As used in this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.
    (2) A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, under circumstances not amounting to burglary as defined in Section 76-6-202, 76-6-203, or 76-6-204 or a violation of Section 76-10-2402 regarding commercial obstruction:
    (a) the person enters or remains unlawfully on property and:
    (i) intends to cause annoyance or injury to any person or damage to any property, including the use of graffiti as defined in Section 76-6-107;
    (ii) intends to commit any crime, other than theft or a felony; or
    (iii) is reckless as to whether his presence will cause fear for the safety of another;
    (b) knowing the person's entry or presence is unlawful, the person enters or remains on property as to which notice against entering is given by:
    (i) personal communication to the actor by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
    (ii) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or
    (iii) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders; or
    (c) the person enters a condominium unit in violation of Subsection 57-8-7(7).
    (3) (a) A violation of Subsection (2)(a) or (b) is a class B misdemeanor unless it was committed in a dwelling, in which event it is a class A misdemeanor.
    (b) A violation of Subsection (2)(c) is an infraction.
    (4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
    (a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
    (b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.

    Amended by Chapter 334, 2010 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WordPerfect 76_06_020600.ZIP 2,869 Bytes

    More to follow....

    Edited to add the following:

    The Utah State Legislature has restricted ANY other entity be they State level, city, or municipal from imposing possession or carry restrictions MORE restrictive than state law WITH EXPLICIT legislative action authorizing it. Counties DO NOT have the authority to even restrict the discharge of a weapon! The authority to restrict the discharge of a firearm is given to Cities, Towns, or Municipalities ONLY.

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE53/htm/53_05a010200.htm
    53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
    (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
    (b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.

    Renumbered and Amended by Chapter 382, 2008 General Session

    AND

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_10_050000.htm
    76-10-500. Uniform law.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state. Except as specifically provided by state law, a citizen of the United States or a lawfully admitted alien shall not be:
    (a) prohibited from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping any firearm at his place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in his possession or lawfully under his control; or
    (b) required to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (2) This part is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities. All authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms.

    Enacted by Chapter 5, 1999 General Session

    Look closely at 53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws. part (2)(a)and (b)
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    Plus
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.

    .... if they said "trespass them because they have a firearm" the local authority (Police, Marshal, or Sheriff ) IS PROHIBITED BY STATUTE FROM ENFORCING ANY SUCH "...Ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms o either public or private property."

    Again, the above is all applicable to UTAH only.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 12-03-2010 at 11:47 PM. Reason: adding more material

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    Just spent the last week at St. Joe while my oldest daughter recovered from double pneumonia that developed into septic shock.

    CC'd every day. One posting at the side valet parking site with little no smoking and no weapons allowed lettering. That was all I saw.

    Was in and out of Skagit emergency over the last couple of months with our other daughter (it's been a very trying last few months!) and same there, small lettering with the red circle and slash by the door. They are MUCH more aggressive with their no smoking signs. Those bad boys are everywhere you look!
    -----------------------------
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Thanks, this is number 3 for me. He will be my namesake. Alan Thomas, my name is Thomas Alan so I switched it up a little.
    I've got three as well. Boy, girl, boy for me. Hope things go well for you (well, I guess mostly your wife and your new one, which will mean they're going well for you).

    -G20

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Well my new baby boy has arrived. Only took four quick pushes to get him out. Hopefully we'll get to sleep soon.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    So I've gotta wonder...

    What happens if you show up in the back of an ambulance, with an injured companion, while your vehicle is on the way to the wrecking yard, and it comes out that you're armed?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    So I've gotta wonder...

    What happens if you show up in the back of an ambulance, with an injured companion, while your vehicle is on the way to the wrecking yard, and it comes out that you're armed?

    I don't know about "if you accompany the accident victim" but if you ARE the accident victim....
    The officer involved relieved me of my piece and dropped by my house to return it to me after I got out of the hospital. At first I thought, why did he take it? But after a bit of thought, I see why. I had my bell rung pretty hard, and there's no way of knowing how reasonable I might/might not be. Just a safety thing. And once away from the hospital, I had another piece to use, so I wasn't left "naked"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    So I've gotta wonder...

    What happens if you show up in the back of an ambulance, with an injured companion, while your vehicle is on the way to the wrecking yard, and it comes out that you're armed?
    Forgive me for this, BUT, I guess that would all depend upon HOW IT CAME OUT THAT YOU WERE ARMED!

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    Has anyone sent any emails to any of these hospital properties, to tell them how ridiculous these signs and policies are? I have sent emails to Valley Medical Center, but have not heard anything back. I am assuming it has fallen upon deaf ears, but it's worth a shot.

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    Deaf ears...

    Yup, I'm going to say it fell on deaf ears.

    Most of the hospitals are private property so it's a done deal. As for other's falling into the public hospital districts and such....?

    As with anything else - you want to be the first to push? Is it worth it? You'll have to decide.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    Has anyone sent any emails to any of these hospital properties, to tell them how ridiculous these signs and policies are? I have sent emails to Valley Medical Center, but have not heard anything back. I am assuming it has fallen upon deaf ears, but it's worth a shot.
    A little Washington State history...
    RCW 72.23 requires each hospital to develop a plan to reasonably prevent and protect their employees from violence at those hospitals. Each hospital had to implement by January 1, 2001 a plan to prevent and protect employees from violence. The plan was created and in doing so they decided to make the facility a weapons free zone which lowered insurance rates and "on paper" made them look like they were actually accomplishing a way to reduce violence.
    Last edited by Bill Starks; 12-06-2010 at 03:56 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    A little Washington State history...
    RCW 72.23 requires each hospital to develop a plan to reasonably prevent and protect their employees from violence at those hospitals. Each hospital had to implement by January 1, 2001 a plan to prevent and protect employees from violence. The plan was created and in doing so they decided to make the facility a weapons free zone which lowered insurance rates and "on paper" made them look like they were actually accomplishing a way to reduce violence.
    On paper I'm a superhero!
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    On paper I'm a superhero!

    And on the internet also, I've seen the pictures and they will be forever embedded---- much like Al Bundy on the TV program seeing the next door neighbor, Marcy, naked....."I'm Blind, I'm Blind!" LOL

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    Has anyone sent any emails to any of these hospital properties, to tell them how ridiculous these signs and policies are? I have sent emails to Valley Medical Center, but have not heard anything back. I am assuming it has fallen upon deaf ears, but it's worth a shot.
    Deaf ears? No, more like ears that just don't care and dismissed you as a crazy gun-totin' lunatic eager to shoot up the place.

    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    A little Washington State history...
    RCW 72.23 requires each hospital to develop a plan to reasonably prevent and protect their employees from violence at those hospitals. Each hospital had to implement by January 1, 2001 a plan to prevent and protect employees from violence. The plan was created and in doing so they decided to make the facility a weapons free zone which lowered insurance rates and "on paper" made them look like they were actually accomplishing a way to reduce violence.
    There's those words again... "reasonable" "protect" "prevent" x3

    At least they put metal detectors at some of the doors, do only the smart armed bad guys can get in. Y'know, cuts down on the riff-raff....
    Last edited by Metalhead47; 12-06-2010 at 05:32 PM.
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  25. #25
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    [QUOTE=Metalhead47;1415305]Deaf ears? No, more like ears that just don't care and dismissed you as a crazy gun-totin' lunatic eager to shoot up the place.



    Phew. Well good thing they have those signs up, to keep out those crazed-lunatics from going in an open firing on everyone!

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