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Thread: Stepping out of car at school while armed

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    Stepping out of car at school while armed

    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    FYI- If you are stopped and you attempt to remain in your vehicle when told to step out by a LEO, that is a violation of law (obstruction 18.2-460). Powers given in PA v Mimms and I have seen people get ripped out of cars and found guilty for exactly what was mentioned above (during traffic stops for traffic offenses). Also, a LEO can order passengers out of a vehicle as well (MD v Wilson).
    On another thread, Novacop addresses the question of whether it is legal to decline an officer's invitation to exit a vehicle. But how does this apply while armed if you are on school property? If you step out of the vehicle while armed in the school parking lot - FELONY. If you attempt to unholster first (and you manage not to get shot) then it is no longer carried concealed - FELONY.

    Other than relying on the milk of human kindness from the officer, is there anyway out of this?

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    My take on it is- now I am not a lawyer or anything.

    Kindly tell him, you have a CHP(do you?) and you can not step out of your car becuase you would then have a felon for walking on school grounds, and you wish to obey his orders but the law will not allow you to because you are on school grounds federal statue.

    And never reach for anything or make a fast movement thats very dumb, could get you killed.
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 12-04-2010 at 08:00 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    My take on it is- now I am not a lawyer or anything.

    Kindly tell him, you have a CHP(do you?) and you can not step out of your car becuase you would then have a felon for walking on school grounds, and you wish to obey his orders but the law will not allow you to because you are on school grounds federal statue.

    And never reach for anything or make a fast movement thats very dumb, could get you killed.
    Yep and if he behaves like Novacop and says do it anyway, get on your cell phone, dial 911 and get his supervisor there....and keep your doors locked. Try to keep dispatch on the phone so there is a clear record of it.

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Yep and if he behaves like Novacop and says do it anyway, get on your cell phone, dial 911 and get his supervisor there....and keep your doors locked. Try to keep dispatch on the phone so there is a clear record of it.
    Oh thats a good one, call 911 on a cop, I did not think of that... Yeah because its a FEDERAL THING.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    you: "There is a LEO here trying to get me to commit a felony"
    dispatcher: uhhhh hold please

    LOL

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    Can an officer compel one to get out of a car which is not on a public road? Isn't that like telling someone to walk out of his/her house without PC or a warrant.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Of course, nobody in their right mind would volunteer for this, but getting jacked up on a Federal GFSZA charge solely because a local LEO forced you out of your car while you were legally carrying might be one way to finally get that horrid piece of legislation beat to death for good...

    TFred

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    Kindly tell him, you have a CHP(do you?) and you can not step out of your car becuase you would then have a felon for walking on school grounds, and you wish to obey his orders but the law will not allow you to because you are on school grounds federal statue.
    Can you say "entrapment"?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ok.. so lets say there is no leo..

    I am carrying concealed.. dropping my daughter off at school.. she kisses me goodbye and gets out and slips in one of these upcoming snows.. she falls.. chips a tooth, breaks an arm maybe and is half on the sidewalk and half on the curb.. and says "Daddy help me!!"

    If I drive away to go disarm (to be legal) am I guilty of reckless endangerment or child abandonment?

    If I step out to help her, I am a committing a felony.

    We need to get this law changed this year.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    There are serious issues with the law. Unfortunately relying on an officer's ability to make proper application of a law is a terrible gamble in this day and age. Then you have to consider the "idiot factor" when dealing with an officer in such a situation.

    This is not to say that every officer is trying to entrap a citizen on a federal weapons offense or every officer is an idiot.

    The law would serve better as an enhanced penalty to preexisting crimes. If you commit armed robbery within 1,000 feet of a school, then you automatically get 5 years (or whatever amount of time) added to the sentence and so on. I don't think any of us want gun violence on school grounds in particular, but this law seeks to make a criminal out of someone going about their business peaceably.

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    Uh, there's some confusion in this thread that needs cleared up. The issue of a CHP holder carrying concealed in their vehicle while on K-12 property is a state matter, not federal. Said CHP issued by Virginia exempts you from the federal GFSZA and the 1000ft rule. The issue at hand is VA state law that prohibits everyone (including CHP holders) from carrying a loaded handgun on K-12 grounds (with the few exceptions).

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    911

    Years ago I called 911 on a state trooper creating a very dangerous situation for both of us during a traffic stop in Ohio and the record made all the difference when I later filed a complaint. I also recorded his Sgt later telling me the audio of the stop was "accidentally erased" which turned out to be a lie. Both officers were disciplined. Calling 911 on a police officer (when acting in good faith) is a very effective way to preserve evidence and a contemporaneous account of what is happening if you don't have an audio recorder (which I now always do).

    In this situation, I'd lock the doors and call 911 and let the officer sit there and stew until his Sgt arrives. Because many police officers routinely lie, this will also preserve evidence.
    Last edited by SicSemperTyrannis; 12-05-2010 at 06:43 AM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis View Post
    In this situation, I'd lock the doors and call 911 and let the officer sit there and stew until his Sgt arrives. .
    The simple answer is that you do not have to comply with what you know to be an unlawful order.

    Act like an adult, explain to the officer that since you are legally armed, it would be a felony for you to exit the vehicle on school property. Tell him that you'd be happy to exit the school, pull onto the public street, and talk about the weather with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis View Post
    Because many police officers routinely lie, this will also preserve evidence.
    That is unfair to categorize anyone in that vein. Do you have a statistical cite to back up that claim?
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    Then you have to consider the "idiot factor" when dealing with an officer in such a situation.
    To be fair, you have to consider idiot factor with a lot of things.

    Too many, in my opinion.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    I am carrying concealed.. dropping my daughter off at school.. she kisses me goodbye and gets out and slips in one of these upcoming snows.. she falls.. chips a tooth, breaks an arm maybe and is half on the sidewalk and half on the curb.. and says "Daddy help me!!"

    If I drive away to go disarm (to be legal) am I guilty of reckless endangerment or child abandonment?

    If I step out to help her, I am a committing a felony.

    We need to get this law changed this year.
    +1 but I don't know whether VCDL's agenda includes this and/or what modification.

    I weighed my daughter's back pack with her books in it and it was 25lbs. She weighed about 50lbs in elementary school. So here is a girl under 4ft tall carrying half her weight getting out of an Explorer. Most of the time I decided to legally disarm and help her carry the backpack rather than have her fall.

    I liked one of last years bills in that allowed people to legally carry firearms on school property all the time, and inside school buildings after hours. That would fix about 90% of the problem. One issue is because of the d@mn federal GFSZ it would only apply to CHP holders and it would be nice to have VA nullify the GFSZ totally!
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 12-06-2010 at 09:09 AM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicSemperTyrannis View Post
    Because many police officers routinely lie, this will also preserve evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    That is unfair to categorize anyone in that vein. Do you have a statistical cite to back up that claim?
    Pro, I don't think you have any need to get upset about this, or ask for a cite. It is well known and discussed here on these very boards that LEOs often use deception to try to catch the bad guys. In fact most of the ones who post here even seem rather proud of that fact, and surprised that any law-abiding citizen would have a problem with the practice.

    Now I personally don't believe that desirable ends justify immoral means, but my opinion doesn't count and the fact seems to be that for now, LEOs do use deception as one of the tools of their trade, and this is a common practice that is fully supported by the Judicial branch of our government at all levels.

    That being the case, what possible reason could there be to object when someone states this fact in the course of normal conversation?

    Remember, the context of any such encounter here (a LEO investigating a gun on school property) may very well be a situation where the LEO is treating the gun holder as a "bad guy". One "bad guy" is as good as another... why would they be prepared to lie to catch "the others" and not this one?

    V/R,

    TFred

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    I don't think he was bashing LEO's. The problem is the law. Take away the law, you have nothing to enforce. The situation of running across a bad LEO is dissolved.

    For that matter, you could run across a good one that is completely understanding and is pro-2A and you have a positive encounter.

    Always have an open mind, but be prepared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CRF250rider1000 View Post
    you: "There is a LEO here trying to get me to commit a felony"
    dispatcher: uhhhh hold please

    LOL
    Sorry but it is:
    Caller: "There is a man here with a gun and a uniform who SAYS he is a LEO telling me to commit a felony"

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Pro, I don't think you have any need to get upset about this
    Oh I'm not upset. I just see this thread (like so many others before it) heading down a road that it doesn't need to go down. Its only a matter of time now before someone throws the "jack booted thug" comment into the conversation, which is usually the icing on the cake.
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    It's only a matter of time now before someone throws the "jack booted thug" comment into the conversation...
    Party pooper.

    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    "Many" is not "Most"

    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Oh I'm not upset. I just see this thread (like so many others before it) heading down a road that it doesn't need to go down. Its only a matter of time now before someone throws the "jack booted thug" comment into the conversation, which is usually the icing on the cake.
    Please re-read the text. He said "most" not "all" or "most" -- on that basis, I believe that is accurate.

    LEOs can be deceptive -- that's legal. Because it is in face legal for cops to lie, many do.

    Some even lie in court -- it's called "testilying" -- look it up if you wish.

    Finally, criticizing bad cops for doing bad things isn't condemning all cops.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Party pooper.

    I don't mind the Jack booted thugs Wylde.
    It's thosexxx cops that give me the jitters
    I wonder how long this lasts

    I'll save the Admin the trouble...That was bad even for me
    Last edited by peter nap; 12-06-2010 at 11:57 AM.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "All" and "Most" can be concrete numbers, "Many" is an observation and there's nothing wrong with making an observation.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    "All" and "Most" can be concrete numbers, "Many" is an observation and there's nothing wrong with making an observation.
    Ohh... math!

    "All" and "most" have absolute definitons... "All" is fairly obvious, "most" is 1/2 plus one*.

    "Many" is completely subjective and can be any number from "2" through "All".

    Math according to TFred...

    ETA: * One could argue in a set of distinct types of elements, "most" could mean the set of elements which has the most members...
    Last edited by TFred; 12-06-2010 at 12:20 PM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Please re-read the text. He said "most" not "all" or "most" -- on that basis, I believe that is accurate.

    LEOs can be deceptive -- that's legal. Because it is in face legal for cops to lie, many do.

    Some even lie in court -- it's called "testilying" -- look it up if you wish.

    Finally, criticizing bad cops for doing bad things isn't condemning all cops.
    Oh I read the text correctly. I understand exactly what is being said. As for bad cops, I couldn't agree more. They should be punished. As should bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad dentists, and anyone else that we put trust in to do a job to the best of their ability.

    Last week after the VCDL meeting, someone ordered a baked potato at the restaurant. They were told that it was cooking, and then later told that there were no more baked potatoes available. Obviously, either the waiter was badly mistaken, or he lied. Should we say that most waiters routinely lie?

    The problem here, is that there seems to be some thread on a regular basis that paints LEO's in a bad light. Do some of them deserve it? Absolutely. Skidmark's current situation comes to mind - it appears that the LEO made a bad call, to say the least. I think though that new folks who read these threads will start to believe that a police officer's sole mission in life is to deny you your right to carry, and that you will be jacked up at every opportunity. Some people here complain that "an officer gets to carry here and there and I can't". Don't blame the officer. Blame the legislature. If you don't like a law, do something positive to effect change. I didn't get into LE to carry where others cannot, I got into it to do the job. I have been out of uniform for 3 years now, and have never run into these "JBT's" that some seem to have a problem with. I OC quite often, and run into LEO's who I may know, or who I have never met before. I carry myself in an adult manner and go about my business. I know what the laws are, what my rights and responsibilities are, and I handle myself accordingly.
    James Reynolds

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