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Stepping out of car at school while armed

F

Fenris

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NovaCop10 said:
FYI- If you are stopped and you attempt to remain in your vehicle when told to step out by a LEO, that is a violation of law (obstruction 18.2-460). Powers given in PA v Mimms and I have seen people get ripped out of cars and found guilty for exactly what was mentioned above (during traffic stops for traffic offenses). Also, a LEO can order passengers out of a vehicle as well (MD v Wilson).
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On another thread, Novacop addresses the question of whether it is legal to decline an officer's invitation to exit a vehicle. But how does this apply while armed if you are on school property? If you step out of the vehicle while armed in the school parking lot - FELONY. If you attempt to unholster first (and you manage not to get shot) then it is no longer carried concealed - FELONY.

Other than relying on the milk of human kindness from the officer, is there anyway out of this?
 
ocholsteroc

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My take on it is- now I am not a lawyer or anything.

Kindly tell him, you have a CHP(do you?) and you can not step out of your car becuase you would then have a felon for walking on school grounds, and you wish to obey his orders but the law will not allow you to because you are on school grounds federal statue.

And never reach for anything or make a fast movement thats very dumb, could get you killed.
 
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peter nap

peter nap

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ocholsteroc said:
My take on it is- now I am not a lawyer or anything.

Kindly tell him, you have a CHP(do you?) and you can not step out of your car becuase you would then have a felon for walking on school grounds, and you wish to obey his orders but the law will not allow you to because you are on school grounds federal statue.

And never reach for anything or make a fast movement thats very dumb, could get you killed.
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Yep and if he behaves like Novacop and says do it anyway, get on your cell phone, dial 911 and get his supervisor there....and keep your doors locked. Try to keep dispatch on the phone so there is a clear record of it.
 
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nonameisgood

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Can an officer compel one to get out of a car which is not on a public road? Isn't that like telling someone to walk out of his/her house without PC or a warrant.
 
TFred

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Of course, nobody in their right mind would volunteer for this, but getting jacked up on a Federal GFSZA charge solely because a local LEO forced you out of your car while you were legally carrying might be one way to finally get that horrid piece of legislation beat to death for good...

TFred
 
2a4all

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ocholsteroc said:
Kindly tell him, you have a CHP(do you?) and you can not step out of your car becuase you would then have a felon for walking on school grounds, and you wish to obey his orders but the law will not allow you to because you are on school grounds federal statue.
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Can you say "entrapment"?
 
ed

ed

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ok.. so lets say there is no leo..

I am carrying concealed.. dropping my daughter off at school.. she kisses me goodbye and gets out and slips in one of these upcoming snows.. she falls.. chips a tooth, breaks an arm maybe and is half on the sidewalk and half on the curb.. and says "Daddy help me!!"

If I drive away to go disarm (to be legal) am I guilty of reckless endangerment or child abandonment?

If I step out to help her, I am a committing a felony.

We need to get this law changed this year.
 
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palerider116

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There are serious issues with the law. Unfortunately relying on an officer's ability to make proper application of a law is a terrible gamble in this day and age. Then you have to consider the "idiot factor" when dealing with an officer in such a situation.

This is not to say that every officer is trying to entrap a citizen on a federal weapons offense or every officer is an idiot.

The law would serve better as an enhanced penalty to preexisting crimes. If you commit armed robbery within 1,000 feet of a school, then you automatically get 5 years (or whatever amount of time) added to the sentence and so on. I don't think any of us want gun violence on school grounds in particular, but this law seeks to make a criminal out of someone going about their business peaceably.
 
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nova

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Uh, there's some confusion in this thread that needs cleared up. The issue of a CHP holder carrying concealed in their vehicle while on K-12 property is a state matter, not federal. Said CHP issued by Virginia exempts you from the federal GFSZA and the 1000ft rule. The issue at hand is VA state law that prohibits everyone (including CHP holders) from carrying a loaded handgun on K-12 grounds (with the few exceptions).
 
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SicSemperTyrannis

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911

Years ago I called 911 on a state trooper creating a very dangerous situation for both of us during a traffic stop in Ohio and the record made all the difference when I later filed a complaint. I also recorded his Sgt later telling me the audio of the stop was "accidentally erased" which turned out to be a lie. Both officers were disciplined. Calling 911 on a police officer (when acting in good faith) is a very effective way to preserve evidence and a contemporaneous account of what is happening if you don't have an audio recorder (which I now always do).

In this situation, I'd lock the doors and call 911 and let the officer sit there and stew until his Sgt arrives. Because many police officers routinely lie, this will also preserve evidence.
 
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ProShooter

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SicSemperTyrannis said:
In this situation, I'd lock the doors and call 911 and let the officer sit there and stew until his Sgt arrives. .
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The simple answer is that you do not have to comply with what you know to be an unlawful order.

Act like an adult, explain to the officer that since you are legally armed, it would be a felony for you to exit the vehicle on school property. Tell him that you'd be happy to exit the school, pull onto the public street, and talk about the weather with him.

SicSemperTyrannis said:
Because many police officers routinely lie, this will also preserve evidence.
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That is unfair to categorize anyone in that vein. Do you have a statistical cite to back up that claim?
 
45acpForMe

45acpForMe

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ed said:
I am carrying concealed.. dropping my daughter off at school.. she kisses me goodbye and gets out and slips in one of these upcoming snows.. she falls.. chips a tooth, breaks an arm maybe and is half on the sidewalk and half on the curb.. and says "Daddy help me!!"

If I drive away to go disarm (to be legal) am I guilty of reckless endangerment or child abandonment?

If I step out to help her, I am a committing a felony.

We need to get this law changed this year.
Click to expand...

+1 but I don't know whether VCDL's agenda includes this and/or what modification.

I weighed my daughter's back pack with her books in it and it was 25lbs. She weighed about 50lbs in elementary school. So here is a girl under 4ft tall carrying half her weight getting out of an Explorer. Most of the time I decided to legally disarm and help her carry the backpack rather than have her fall.

I liked one of last years bills in that allowed people to legally carry firearms on school property all the time, and inside school buildings after hours. That would fix about 90% of the problem. One issue is because of the d@mn federal GFSZ it would only apply to CHP holders and it would be nice to have VA nullify the GFSZ totally!
 
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TFred

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SicSemperTyrannis said:
Because many police officers routinely lie, this will also preserve evidence.
Click to expand...

ProShooter said:
That is unfair to categorize anyone in that vein. Do you have a statistical cite to back up that claim?
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Pro, I don't think you have any need to get upset about this, or ask for a cite. It is well known and discussed here on these very boards that LEOs often use deception to try to catch the bad guys. In fact most of the ones who post here even seem rather proud of that fact, and surprised that any law-abiding citizen would have a problem with the practice.

Now I personally don't believe that desirable ends justify immoral means, but my opinion doesn't count and the fact seems to be that for now, LEOs do use deception as one of the tools of their trade, and this is a common practice that is fully supported by the Judicial branch of our government at all levels.

That being the case, what possible reason could there be to object when someone states this fact in the course of normal conversation?

Remember, the context of any such encounter here (a LEO investigating a gun on school property) may very well be a situation where the LEO is treating the gun holder as a "bad guy". One "bad guy" is as good as another... why would they be prepared to lie to catch "the others" and not this one?

V/R,

TFred
 
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palerider116

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I don't think he was bashing LEO's. The problem is the law. Take away the law, you have nothing to enforce. The situation of running across a bad LEO is dissolved.

For that matter, you could run across a good one that is completely understanding and is pro-2A and you have a positive encounter.

Always have an open mind, but be prepared.
 
ProShooter

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TFred said:
Pro, I don't think you have any need to get upset about this
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Oh I'm not upset. I just see this thread (like so many others before it) heading down a road that it doesn't need to go down. Its only a matter of time now before someone throws the "jack booted thug" comment into the conversation, which is usually the icing on the cake.
 
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