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Thread: The Interplay Between Concealed and Open Carry

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    The Interplay Between Concealed and Open Carry

    Let us make the assumption that WI institutes a right to conceal carry via permit in the next two years. Does this impact open carry in any way? For instance:

    1. If you are a WI permit holder, does that exempt you from the federal GFSZ for OC as well?
    2. Assuming further that the new law has an exemption from the state GFSZ for permit holders, does it extend to OC as well as CC? Suppose that the statute doesn't explicitly differentiate.
    3. If the permit does not differentiate between OC and CC, what other "benefits" can derive from the new law to OC? The possibilities so far:

    i - GFSZ carry
    ii - reciprocal/recognition carry in some states
    iii - NICS exemption

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    atm wi does not have a law on open carrying

    its legality is a negative conclusion of law

    more law than shall issue permit ccw will have to be written to affect openly carried weapons

    the state may benefit by further limiting the numbers of legally armed citizens beyond prohibiting ccw by unqualified citizens

    18usc922(q)(B)(ii) does not differentiate cc from oc by a state licensed person

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...f_1990#Effect:
    Last edited by Big Guy; 12-05-2010 at 02:08 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    I'm an optimist

    I do NOT believe the Republican/Tea party candidate will support LARGER government. WI will go to constitutional carry because we cannot afford anything else!

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I don't think your assumptions are valid. I'm optomistic that the new legislators have long enough memories, and mad enough constituents, to do what they promised & what their party platform calls for - constitutional carry.

    But for the sake of argument, using your parameters...
    1) yes, you would be exempt from the GFSZ in Wisconsin.

    2) unless the hypothetical law is written so as to exclude open carry, yes, OC in a school zone by someone with government permission would be OK.

    3) I see no benefits to open carry. Other states which do not prohibit OC would still not prohibit it, and other states which only permit it with a state-issued license would continue. If you register with the government, you would have a wider range of options.


    I read through that Wiki article someone posted a link to... Hadn't realized before that only on-duty LEOs are allowed to carry in a school zone. Even with their special nationwide permission to carry concealed, off-duty LEOs are still required to unload & encase in a school zone. There's no exception for them. (And the federal version of the law requires a locked case, but of course the federal law only applies on federal property.)

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    Let us make the assumption that WI institutes a right to conceal carry via permit in the next two years. Does this impact open carry in any way? For instance:

    1. If you are a WI permit holder, does that exempt you from the federal GFSZ for OC as well?
    2. Assuming further that the new law has an exemption from the state GFSZ for permit holders, does it extend to OC as well as CC? Suppose that the statute doesn't explicitly differentiate.
    3. If the permit does not differentiate between OC and CC, what other "benefits" can derive from the new law to OC? The possibilities so far:

    i - GFSZ carry
    ii - reciprocal/recognition carry in some states
    iii - NICS exemption
    Hopefully it will be a permit to carry and not simply a CCW permit. The previous PPA did not include OC. If the permit is only a Concealed Carry permit then OC would not be exempted from the GFSZ.

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    Additional Thoughts

    The right to open carry comes from the WI constitution. The restrictions placed upon it come from state and federal statutes. If those statutes specify an exception to a restriction (licensees ok) then the restriction is limited by that exception. However, it is not unknown for some LEO's to insist that a concealed carry permit, in and of itself, requires concealment (even if the statute doesn't). I was wondering if somebody had considered some safety mechanism in the new law to prevent mischief of that sort.

    With regard to the WI GFSZ, there is no (obviously) license exception. Would such not have to be included in a new PPA - for the sake of both OC (by licensees) and CC? Or would that be problematic as a LEO could not determine if a OC in GFSZ was lawful (licensee) or unlawful (unlicensed citizen). We don't want to give them reasonable suspicion on a stick. I am trying to think of other gotchas that may be generated by bad bill drafting. Unlicensed CC is a pipe dream for the near future in WI. The political set up is favorable for CC legislation but many of the supporters will balk at "constitutional" concealed carry or yield to complaints from constituents. Besides they want the money.

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    I think they have waited for to long to ban OC. It is now become so popular and so well known that banning OC is most likely no longer an option as we already have a constitutional right to OC.

    Even the leftist media is still pro constitutional rights for the most part from what I have seen.

    I could be wrong though

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I hope there is no law allowing us to CCW, I hope the current law is rescinded.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I hope there is no law allowing us to CCW, I hope the current law is rescinded.
    +10000

    The right to ccw does not need a permitt or a new law, rescind the current ban and carry any way you choose.
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    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

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    In that case,

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    +10000

    The right to ccw does not need a permitt or a new law, rescind the current ban and carry any way you choose.
    how would you deal with issues like GFSZ, NICS and reciprocity?

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    Last edited by polekat; 12-07-2010 at 03:53 PM.
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    amen johnny amish
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    how would you deal with issues like GFSZ, NICS and reciprocity?
    GFSZ - in the courts.
    NICS - who cares? I'll wait 2 days for a background check.
    reciprocity - get the appropriate permit for the state I want to carry in.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    how would you deal with issues like GFSZ, NICS and reciprocity?
    GFSZ - rescind the law
    NICS - rescind the law
    Reciprocity - rescind restrictions on how to carry

    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Thanks Paul and Protias, I could not have said it any better.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    Thanks Paul and Protias, I could not have said it any better.
    More laws hasn't seem to stop criminals, so perhaps we should try to arm John Q Citizen from the criminals.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Hopefully it will be a permit to carry and not simply a CCW permit. The previous PPA did not include OC. If the permit is only a Concealed Carry permit then OC would not be exempted from the GFSZ.
    Your advocating permitted OC?
    I do not agree with that at all. I think we should be able to carry any way we wish non permitted. They need to change the GFSZ law to say no guns on school in a school building. I do not think we need anything more than that because quite frankly, criminals won't abide by those laws either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
    Your advocating permitted OC?
    I do not agree with that at all. I think we should be able to carry any way we wish non permitted. They need to change the GFSZ law to say no guns on school in a school building. I do not think we need anything more than that because quite frankly, criminals won't abide by those laws either.
    Sounds like that is what he is advocating to me as well. Don't even give them the idea of permitting OC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crassus View Post
    Sounds like that is what he is advocating to me as well. Don't even give them the idea of permitting OC.
    My thoughts exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
    Your advocating permitted OC?
    I do not agree with that at all. I think we should be able to carry any way we wish non permitted. They need to change the GFSZ law to say no guns on school in a school building. I do not think we need anything more than that because quite frankly, criminals won't abide by those laws either.
    Some other states just put language in that says something along the lines of "Anyone who is otherwise able to posess a firearm in this state is considered permitted by the state to carry in accordance with the federal GFSZ"

    I can't remember which state(s) have that language. I want to say it was one of the western states. I'll keep looking and see if I can find it.

    In any case, some people disagreed on whether that met the requriments of the federal GFSZ. I believe it does and believe we should push for similar language if we can pass Constiutional Carry.
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    wont work

    gfsz 1995 ii) if the individual possessing the
    firearm is licensed to do so by the state
    in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the state and the
    law of the state or political subdivision
    requires that before an individual obtains
    such a license the law enforcement
    authorities of the state or political subdivision
    verify that the individual is qualified under law
    to receive the license

    see the wikipedia discussion

    gfsz 1995 prohibits reciprocity in school zones

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Guy View Post
    wont work

    gfsz 1995 ii) if the individual possessing the
    firearm is licensed to do so by the state
    in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the state and the
    law of the state or political subdivision
    requires that before an individual obtains
    such a license the law enforcement
    authorities of the state or political subdivision
    verify that the individual is qualified under law
    to receive the license

    see the wikipedia discussion

    gfsz 1995 prohibits reciprocity in school zones
    Wow! good find.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Guy View Post
    wont work

    gfsz 1995 ii) if the individual possessing the
    firearm is licensed to do so by the state
    in which the school zone is located or a
    political subdivision of the state and the
    law of the state or political subdivision
    requires that before an individual obtains
    such a license the law enforcement
    authorities of the state or political subdivision
    verify that the individual is qualified under law
    to receive the license

    see the wikipedia discussion

    gfsz 1995 prohibits reciprocity in school zones
    Unless you can find a cite to a case that has been brought to court on your assertion I don't think it has been tested.

    Although I agree that it could be found the way you suggest, if the state says that everyone who may legally posess firearms is licensed I would argue that they have de facto verified that they are qualified under law as those who are not legally allowed to posess firearms are specifically not exempt.

    This does bring up another idea. Now that we have "conservatives" in both houses and the governers house, a "firearms freedom act" should also be passed. This may help along the court challenges of other states and help reduce the feds usurped commerce clause power which would affect the GFSZA.


    ETA: I looked more into the WIKI article and have read the BATF letter. Does the BATF's regulative authority allow it to interpret legislative intent? I don't believe so but am unsure.

    In any case I'm still reading and looking for a case that has been brought to court of a permit holder that was otherwise legally carrying a firearm and arguing under the exception.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 12-08-2010 at 11:29 AM. Reason: UPDATE
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    Ok, as far as it goes but

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    GFSZ - in the courts.
    NICS - who cares? I'll wait 2 days for a background check.
    reciprocity - get the appropriate permit for the state I want to carry in.
    (GFSZ) who knows if it will ever make to SCOTUS, how long it will take or what the outcome will be.
    (NICS) not a big issue. I think the background check is still instantaneous, the 48 hours is for you to "cool off" - I guess if you were in the sauna.
    (NR vs RECIP) - still paying $ for government permission (and doesn't help in CO, MI and SC). If a WI permits existed, how many recognitions/reciprocities would be likely? If structured properly close to 40. Forget about HI, OR, MD, MA, RI, NJ, NY, DE in any case. How much could you save by not needing FL, PA, UT, VA, etc.?

    If you really don't want/need the "benefits" of a WI permit, of course there is no requirement to obtain one. The questions are (1) What advantages to OC derive from the lack of a CC permit system? (2) What are the fears that a CC permit system conjures up for those who would only OC anyway?

    In sum, if you already purchase permits from other states, a good WI permit would provide certain advantages and save you $. If you don't like permits then you probably don't have one and will never change your mind.
    Last edited by apjonas; 12-08-2010 at 01:10 PM. Reason: typo

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
    Your advocating permitted OC?
    I do not agree with that at all. I think we should be able to carry any way we wish non permitted. They need to change the GFSZ law to say no guns on school in a school building. I do not think we need anything more than that because quite frankly, criminals won't abide by those laws either.
    There should be no restrictions on where, when, or how people carry.

    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    (GFSZ) who knows if it will ever make to SCOTUS, how long it will take or what the outcome will be.
    (NICS) not a big issue. I think the background check is still instantaneous, the 48 hours is for you to "cool off" - I guess if you were in the sauna.
    (NR vs RECIP) - still paying $ for government permission (and doesn't help in CO, MI and SC). If a WI permits existed, how many recognitions/reciprocities would be likely? If structured properly close to 40. Forget about HI, OR, MD, MA, RI, NJ, NY, DE in any case. How much could you save by not needing FL, PA, UT, VA, etc.?

    If you really don't want/need the "benefits" of a WI permit, of course there is no requirement to obtain one. The questions are (1) What advantages to OC derive from the lack of a CC permit system? (2) What are the fears that a CC permit system conjures up for those who would only OC anyway?

    In sum, if you already purchase permits from other states, a good WI permit would provide certain advantages and save you $. If you don't like permits then you probably don't have one and will never change your mind.
    48 hour "cooling off period" does not exist in every state, so why do we have it?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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