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Thread: Why no 4th-A law suit, for PC12031(e) violations ?

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    Why no 4th-A law suit, for PC12031(e) violations ?

    I'm wondering why no one has filed a lawsuit for 4-A violations concerning the PC 12031(e) ?

    There might have been someone who did, but I haven't been able to find it on this forum.
    I can't understand how a 12031 (e) can "Legally" be enforced, with out breaking your 4th-A rights
    and no one has filed in Federal court yet.
    Anybody have any Information on this ?

    Robin47

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    If you have the time and money then go for it. 12031 is on CGF radar but they are taking down CA draconian gun laws in a specific order.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewy352 View Post
    If you have the time and money then go for it. 12031 is on CGF radar but they are taking down CA draconian gun laws in a specific order.
    Well thanks Chewy352, I'll look at CGF, and see if I can get the info there.
    I guess there is an agenda at hand.

    Robin47

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    according to lawyer, they need to violate you several times before you have a real case. one time is an oopsie and won't win much in court. i already got one case and waiting for a second time for the OCPDs to violate my rights again before I may get a case.

    another sad thing is that they are legally allowed to detain you up to 20 minutes to determine if you are committing a crime. only if they arrested me and took me to central jail, then i really have a case.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    according to lawyer, they need to violate you several times before you have a real case. one time is an oopsie and won't win much in court. i already got one case and waiting for a second time for the OCPDs to violate my rights again before I may get a case.
    Your lawyer is probably recalling Kolender v. Lawson where a San Diegan was harassed b police again and again for ID. It was useful to that guy to be able to show a pattern of harassment because the ID law at the time didn't require reasonable, articulable suspicion (I believe) and the police could ask for ID from anybody really. Is 12031(e) similar? I guess in some ways. You're stopped for a period of time without any RAS while your property is seized. It probably isn't needed to be stopped repeatedly, but it couldn't hurt your case.

    another sad thing is that they are legally allowed to detain you up to 20 minutes to determine if you are committing a crime. only if they arrested me and took me to central jail, then i really have a case.
    You can be detained for a reasonable amount of time if there is RAS that a crime has or is about to occur. You can't be detained if there isn't RAS. If you are (e) checked and it lasts 20 minutes then your rights have been violated. If it lasts more than a minute then your rights have been violated (unless the officers actually have RAS).

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    patience. patience.

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    You can be detained for a reasonable amount of time if there is RAS that a crime has or is about to occur. You can't be detained if there isn't RAS. If you are (e) checked and it lasts 20 minutes then your rights have been violated. If it lasts more than a minute then your rights have been violated (unless the officers actually have RAS).


    and i am sure all LEOs will claim they need 20 minutes to determine if there was a crime committed, will be a crime, or if there is a crime. OCPDs will always try to harass since it is an antigun county.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsensei View Post
    patience. patience.
    Patience? In this crowd?

    -Gene

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
    Patience? In this crowd?

    -Gene
    All things are possible. Patience. Reason. Strategy. It's cooperation that is the difficult task.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    and i am sure all LEOs will claim they need 20 minutes to determine if there was a crime committed, will be a crime, or if there is a crime. OCPDs will always try to harass since it is an antigun county.
    They can say and do whatever they want. I'm just telling you what my understanding of what they are supposed to do is. If you can get them to say into an audio recorder that they need 20 minutes to determine if there was a crime committed, then that's great. You'll have my full support to sue the pants off of anybody who ignores RAS for a detainment.

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    I don't rember who it was but recently on individual ON THIS FORUM was tagged 2x by 2 different agencies no more than 3 min apart! And he got it on audio/video recording!

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elsensei View Post
    patience. patience.
    Glad you chimed in...they don't listen to me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Glad you chimed in...they don't listen to me...
    Oh a lot of us listen Cato but just don't always follow your advise. I respect your opinions even if I don't follow them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    according to lawyer, they need to violate you several times before you have a real case. one time is an oopsie and won't win much in court. i already got one case and waiting for a second time for the OCPDs to violate my rights again before I may get a case.

    another sad thing is that they are legally allowed to detain you up to 20 minutes to determine if you are committing a crime. only if they arrested me and took me to central jail, then i really have a case.
    What about multiple violations of the same agency against different individuals? Is that not a pattern?

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    Quote Originally Posted by elsensei View Post
    patience. patience.
    Yeah I got Patience, as I'm old and tired anyway.
    However it would be nice to see some more freedom in my life time ! Robin47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin47 View Post
    Yeah I got Patience, as I'm old and tired anyway.
    However it would be nice to see some more freedom in my life time ! Robin47
    You'll see much more, and if you have another 10 years in you, the world might not be recognizable from where you started.

    12031(e) is on the radar. As Gene said, patience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
    As Gene said, patience.
    Do they have a pill for that?
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    Good post!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    Your lawyer is probably recalling Kolender v. Lawson where a San Diegan was harassed b police again and again for ID. It was useful to that guy to be able to show a pattern of harassment because the ID law at the time didn't require reasonable, articulable suspicion (I believe) and the police could ask for ID from anybody really. Is 12031(e) similar? I guess in some ways. You're stopped for a period of time without any RAS while your property is seized. It probably isn't needed to be stopped repeatedly, but it couldn't hurt your case.



    You can be detained for a reasonable amount of time if there is RAS that a crime has or is about to occur. You can't be detained if there isn't RAS. If you are (e) checked and it lasts 20 minutes then your rights have been violated. If it lasts more than a minute then your rights have been violated (unless the officers actually have RAS).
    Hey Bigtoe,

    I concur with your opinion.

    +1

    markm

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    I have been patient for decades; however...

    Quote Originally Posted by elsensei View Post
    patience. patience.
    Hey elsensei,

    Coming from you, I will heed a warning for patience.

    Thanks again for your work,
    markm

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    Cato who?

    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Glad you chimed in...they don't listen to me...
    Hey Cato,

    Please chalk this too ignorance of your record on my part; I don't know your record.

    I respect your opinion and enjoy your posts; however, I don't know of your personal accomplishments or attempts at changing our system.

    Some of us who are involved in this political war are cheerleaders--WHICH INCLUDES ME!

    Some of us are political warriors who are actually working to get things accomplished. Elsensei, Big Toe, Hgreen, Dale, et allia are actually doing things which includes, for one person anyway, getting illegally arrested.

    Where is the political campaign or judicial record of your work? Again, I am sure this is a case of IGNORANCE on my part and I apologize for that.

    There are two types of leadership grants: Du jour and defacto. One is earned by actions performed and experience gained, the other is given by authoritarians who rule from above.

    Some on this forum have earned a leadership role with their actions.

    thanks,
    markm

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Glad you chimed in...they don't listen to me...
    Beg my pardon, but who are you again?

    I jest, I jest. It bothers me somewhat that for some reason people won't listen to a LEO who is very much PRO-liberty.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Hey Cato,

    Please chalk this too ignorance of your record on my part; I don't know your record.

    I respect your opinion and enjoy your posts; however, I don't know of your personal accomplishments or attempts at changing our system.

    Some of us who are involved in this political war are cheerleaders--WHICH INCLUDES ME!

    Some of us are political warriors who are actually working to get things accomplished. Elsensei, Big Toe, Hgreen, Dale, et allia are actually doing things which includes, for one person anyway, getting illegally arrested.

    Where is the political campaign or judicial record of your work? Again, I am sure this is a case of IGNORANCE on my part and I apologize for that.

    There are two types of leadership grants: Du jour and defacto. One is earned by actions performed and experience gained, the other is given by authoritarians who rule from above.

    Some on this forum have earned a leadership role with their actions.

    thanks,
    markm
    Quote Originally Posted by demnogis View Post
    Beg my pardon, but who are you again?

    I jest, I jest. It bothers me somewhat that for some reason people won't listen to a LEO who is very much PRO-liberty.
    Some have also missed this:

    Join Date Oct 2006

    Cato has been an esteemed supporter and resource from the age when there was only one active California member who open carried on this board. There are few persons whom I respect more for the value of their counsel about open carry. To question his credibility on the basis of the apparent absence of brazen advocacy is highly misplaced. He in many ways has more to risk than some of us... dont let his caution be mistaken for obiesence to tyrannical influences.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

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    Quote Originally Posted by xnetc9 View Post
    You can be detained for a reasonable amount of time if there is RAS that a crime has or is about to occur. You can't be detained if there isn't RAS. If you are (e) checked and it lasts 20 minutes then your rights have been violated. If it lasts more than a minute then your rights have been violated (unless the officers actually have RAS).


    and i am sure all LEOs will claim they need 20 minutes to determine if there was a crime committed, will be a crime, or if there is a crime. OCPDs will always try to harass since it is an antigun county.
    Every time they detain us and conduct their fishing expeditions the more ground they lose on RAS for open carry.

    Think about it. . . If they observe over a period of time that a man with a mask walking into a 7-Eleven is, more often than not, going to rob the place, then they have RAS to stop an individual wearing a mask going into a 7-Eleven. But with each detention of an open carrier with no laws being broken they are simply chipping away at their own RAS leeway as they now can't correlate a man open carrying with crime. See?

    The reason there have been no charges is that the right situation hasn't presented itself. We haven't even established possession is a right outside the home. . . so how can we challenge the right to having a handgun be loaded outside the home?

    I can tell you though that I am confident I have standing as 12031(e) was provided as a reason they detained me. . . We will see what options are available once I win my appeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by demnogis View Post
    Beg my pardon, but who are you again?

    I jest, I jest. It bothers me somewhat that for some reason people won't listen to a LEO who is very much PRO-liberty.
    LEO or not should factor little into the strength of the ideas I support. If it lends any level of credibility to those ideas in the eyes of just a portion of the fence sitters who visit here, I'll use that crutch. For all the others I have to rely entirely on logic and persuasion.

    It has caused me no end of personal angst to speak against UOC, a baby which I believe I helped birth through my knowledge of the penal code and case law, but this carry battlefield is fluid and tactics have to be fluid to match that changing field until the carry right is protected by the courts from legislative abuse.

    I just can't see large UOC media seeking events as strategically the right move at this time. Inspiring legislation which takes time and money to remove later and puts more people in legal jeopardy is not a positive tactic for the moment.

    Seeing how the courts operate these past 4 years, for good and bad, I've come to trust Alan Gura's strategy and those of CGF/SAF to try to put functional arms in as many good hands as possible both CC, which would be THE most practicable daily mode of carry for THE most number of Californians, and also OC, my personal favorite, for those of us who find it possible to do so in our daily lives.

    What I hope for is Vermont carry...which for us is a long way off if ever.

    (And thanks for the back!) C3 too!

    'e' is in the cross hairs. We won't hear the report however until the CGF trigger puller is already cycling the bolt handle and the target takes it's first hit. !
    Last edited by cato; 12-11-2010 at 03:51 AM.

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    Cato,

    Just curious. In the line of duty have you run into OCers? Do you/would you "e" check? Does your department have a policy that mandates "e" checks?
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