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Thread: VA firearm possession question.

  1. #1
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    VA firearm possession question.

    Question for the 'legalese inclined' of the forums:

    Where I work there are a series of rules signed in order to access/operate in the facility. Contained in these rules prohibits the possession of any weapon including firearms in or around the premises, including the parking lot and connecting private access roads. The building does have gates, and card/biometric access required to enter, but I'm only interested in being able to possess my firearm in my vehicle locked and out of view. So I would have to park off-site about .75 miles away and hoof it in order to follow this Free-Fire-Zone rule.

    Does this house bill preempt that (dangerous) rule?

    from VCDL:

    HB171 Patron: Brenda L. Pogge - all patrons

    Firearms in locked vehicles; immunity from liability. Provides that no person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business owner may prohibit a person who lawfully possesses a firearm from storing that firearm in a locked motor vehicle. The bill provides civil immunity for such persons, property owners, tenants, employers, or business owners. The provisions of the bill would not apply to possession of firearms on property on which a person is prohibited from possessing a firearm; (ii) vehicles on property (a) to which access is restricted or limited through the use of a gate; or (b) upon which a building occupied by a single employer and its affiliated entities is located and in which access to the building is restricted or limited by card access; (iii) vehicles owned or leased by an employer or business entity and used by an employee in the course of his employment; (iv) personal vehicles while such vehicles are being used for the transport of consumers of programs licensed by the Department of Behavioral Health and Developmental Services; or (v) vehicles on property controlled by an employer required to develop and implement a security plan under federal law or regulation.



    VCDL Comments
    This bill makes it so no person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business entity can prohibit a person from having a firearm locked in or locked to a motor vehicle in a parking lot. It also exempts that person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business entity from any civil action that results from any occurrence of such lawfully stored firearm. The bill exempts schools and company vehicles. VCDL would like to see the school exemption dropped so teachers can leave guns in their vehicles.
    Appreciate any input/feedback.

    -Epi
    Last edited by epilogue; 12-06-2010 at 04:44 PM.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    I think this bill was submitted last year, and was defeated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I think this bill was submitted last year, and was defeated.
    Unfortunate.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    It appears that VCDL does not yet have the 2011 Legislation Tracking Tool page up and running yet. It's still a little bit early.

    TFred

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    Sure hope something positive comes from the Bill, as it would potentially disarm several of us on our daily commute. Not to mention I would be forced to leave my car in an unsecured parking lot close to a mile away, to be off the premises.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    As things stand right now, your employer can set up whatever rules they want, and enforce them with everything up to and including termination for cause, which will stop you from drawing unemployment. Merely refusing to allow them to search your vehicle can get you canned.

    Getting a workplace parking lot bill through is a difficult endeavor. The GA sees it as an intrusion on the rights of the employer, rather than as a personal safety issue. The GA historically sees employer rights as being of a higher importance than workers' rights.

    There is nothing listed yet at http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?111+lst+ALL but someone may still file a bill before the deadline.

    stay safe.

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    Going to send a reasonable petition to the property management to try and get the rule amended to exclude locked vehicles. I'll pre-post my message for review for the board before I send it off in case I come off as aggressive or demanding.


    skidmark

    As things stand right now, your employer can set up whatever rules they want, and enforce them with everything up to and including termination for cause, which will stop you from drawing unemployment. Merely refusing to allow them to search your vehicle can get you canned.

    Getting a workplace parking lot bill through is a difficult endeavor. The GA sees it as an intrusion on the rights of the employer, rather than as a personal safety issue. The GA historically sees employer rights as being of a higher importance than workers' rights.

    There is nothing listed yet at http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?111+lst+ALL but someone may still file a bill before the deadline.

    stay safe.
    Read your recent event, I don't get upset easily, and that upset me. User now has an additional $400 at his disposal to assist you in defending your person, reputation, name and god given rights.
    Last edited by epilogue; 12-06-2010 at 08:51 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    As much as you think it might sway them, and as much as my saying this may seem to contradict everything else I stand for, be aware that you will most likely only open up a can of worms for yourself when they ask you why you are interested in changing the rules about firearms on the property.

    Most of the places where I have been able to get any sort of info on the genesis of such policies either cite OSHA Workplace Violence Prevention regs (from a mistaken understanding of those OSHA regs) or a "suggestion from either their legal or HR advisors who are both looking to limit any possible liability.

    From other discussions here on OCDO it seems the results are never positive, and often are in fact negative. Anti's, no matter where or why they come to that position, do not want to look at logic and facts. You are aware of the saying about trying to teach a pig to sing?

    Some folks, who are fortunate enough to pull it off, have purchased a beater car to park in the company lot. They commute from a free/safe parking lot to & from work. then get in their "real" car where they can safely retrieve their self defense hardware. Or is there public transportation that takes you reasonably close to work?

    But if your employer is a subsidiary of something bigger which is not anti, you might approach the higher-ups.

    Just blue-skying some thoughts.

    stay safe.

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    The company running the facility is a separate entity from who my employer is, my worst case assumption would be being barred from the property, thus leading to termination for being unable to perform my job functions. My specific employer has no regulations, rules, or trepidation about firearms.

    After a 5 minute call with the security director, his understanding was that the rules were inherited by their corporate purchase of the company predecessor, and the rules were simply adopted. In the same conversation, he asked me about my CHP and how difficult the process was to obtain one. I think if I play this smart, I can affect change.

    From Jim (Director) I gathered that the ultimate concern was if some miffed employee of the tenants had access to a firearm, he could come in and blitz the place with said firearm. I explained that if a person was in a state of mind to commit to such an act, that the rules are the last thing that would prevent the action.

    Still working on the higher up petition.

    BTW: If this all fails, I'll be parking off site and walking to my building until the change is enacted or I find a new employer.
    Last edited by epilogue; 12-06-2010 at 10:54 PM.

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    Howdy Jim, wanted to drop you a line and run this by you before submitting it to the [facilities email] address:

    To whom it may concern,

    My name is[*] and I've been working for[*] at the[*] campus for over three years. I write to you to request permission from the property management to have a firearm locked within my vehicle while on[*] property. My wife and I have been CHP (concealed handgun permit) holders in VA for some time and we both take our personal protection very seriously. Our home is in a neighborhood known for its violent crime and I do not find it acceptable knowing I would have to disarm before going to work each day in order to follow the rules. My request is most certainly not to have the firearm on my person while in or around the company buildings, just to have permission to have it locked in my vehicle while on[*] property so I may have it available to me when going home each day. My only alternative, should my request be denied, would be to park across[*] Rd at the[*] facility in their unsecured parking lot, and walk to my building so I can stay compliant with the rules in place, leaving my car and firearm vulnerable to theft.

    My deepest thanks for your consideration.

    -[name]

    P.S. No rule has ever stopped a bad guy from doing what they were committed to do. Good guys try to always follow the rules, regardless of how inconvenienced, or problematic they may be.
    'Bout to send this off to the facility management higher-ups. Appreciate any input.

    Sorry for all the *'s my work requires a fair amount of confidentiality.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry

    I dropped the issue with my employer some time ago. Since the parking lot is a common area shared by numerous businesses and they lease the building they cannot restrict me from keeping a firearm locked in my vehicle.

    However, that does not make me feel fuzzy all over as now I must leave a firearm locked in my vehicle which presents a whole new set of concerns.

    It should not be lawful (and technically it is not) to prevent any lawful citizen from carrying at any time.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I dropped the issue with my employer some time ago. Since the parking lot is a common area shared by numerous businesses and they lease the building they cannot restrict me from keeping a firearm locked in my vehicle.

    However, that does not make me feel fuzzy all over as now I must leave a firearm locked in my vehicle which presents a whole new set of concerns.

    It should not be lawful (and technically it is not) to prevent any lawful citizen from carrying at any time.
    I hear that, but our facility grounds are probably just shy of pentagon fortressing, I wouldn't feel worried at all with it in my vehicle.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epilogue View Post
    'Bout to send this off to the facility management higher-ups. Appreciate any input.

    Sorry for all the *'s my work requires a fair amount of confidentiality.
    General writing tips:

    Find a name or at least a title. TWIMC puts the reader off right away.

    Don't tell them what you are going to ask them, just ask them.

    I'd try to break the letter up into 3 or 4 main points, and use a small paragraph for each one.

    Try to frame the request in terms of wanting to follow the rules, but point out that the rules leave you vulnerable.

    "My only alternative" sounds a little like an ultimatum, which is not what you want. Something more like, "In order to comply with the current policy, I must ..., which obviously leaves my firearms more vulnerable to theft, something that nobody would want to happen." ... etc...

    Just my thoughts...

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epilogue View Post
    'Bout to send this off to the facility management higher-ups. Appreciate any input.

    Sorry for all the *'s my work requires a fair amount of confidentiality.
    Epilogue, why are you highlighting your CHP. Do you think that should give you and your wife special citizen status?

    Sorry but that's just another P4P letter. If they don't allow it for all employees possessing their guns in accordance with Va law, I hope they stick by their guns (Pun Intended) and not allow it period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Epilogue, why are you highlighting your CHP. Do you think that should give you and your wife special citizen status?

    Sorry but that's just another P4P letter. If they don't allow it for all employees possessing their guns in accordance with Va law, I hope they stick by their guns (Pun Intended) and not allow it period.
    Because CHP holders are required to show proficiency with a firearm before the application can even begin, and go through a more extensive background evaluation than when simply purchasing a weapon, just because the possession of firearms is prohibited, does not mean the management are anti-gun, or gun ignorant. It's not a 'Yay! Look at me!' statement, for anyone.

    I don't know what you mean by 'P4P'. The rule states that it's prohibited unless permission is granted by facility management, and I'm sorry you seem miffed by the request, but it won't change my decision.

    Thanks for your feedback.

    -TFred- thanks a ton for the input, I'll rearrange the request and re-post.
    Last edited by epilogue; 12-13-2010 at 06:57 PM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epilogue View Post
    Because CHP holders are required to show proficiency with a firearm before the application can even begin, and go through a more extensive background evaluation than when simply purchasing a weapon, just because the possession of firearms is prohibited, does not mean the management are anti-gun, or gun ignorant. It's not a 'Yay! Look at me!' statement, for anyone.

    I don't know what you mean by 'P4P'. The rule states that it's prohibited unless permission is granted by facility management, and I'm sorry you seem miffed by the request, but it won't change my decision.

    Thanks for your feedback.

    -TFred- thanks a ton for the input, I'll rearrange the request and re-post.
    P4P stands for "perks for permits", and is a sore spot for some of this community. They have valid points.

    What you are asking should not depend upon your permit. You are asking to do something that is perfectly legal for any law-abiding-citizen in the State of Virginia, and should not depend upon a permission slip from the government.

    Having that permit may strengthen your point that you have been found to be a law-abiding-citizen, but if your job is on a secure facility, it's likely that they already know that.

    Just filling in some blanks...

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=epilogue;1420606]Because CHP holders are required to show proficiency with a firearm before the application can even begin,

    Really? I wasn't aware you needed to show proficiency to take a hunter safety course.
    BTW, how many rounds a week do you shoot and under what conditions?


    and go through a more extensive background evaluation than when simply purchasing a weapon,

    Really again! Just what do you think is involved in the CHP background check.


    I don't know what you mean by 'P4P'.

    Perks for Permits.
    That permit grants you the privilege to hide your gun. Period. No hgher background check, no more proficient, no secret clearance. Just permission to stick the little plastic thing in your pocket.


    I'm sorry you seem miffed by the request, but it won't change my decision.

    This is an Open Carry Board. Not how to register gunowners in the Commonwealth board.
    In case you didn't catch the drift, I'm one of them that considers it a sore spot and one of the reasons that if that bill ever passes without a fight, it will not be for permit holders only.
    In Virginia we have a RIGHT to carry a firearm. No Permits, no Registration, a right. It just has to be openly carried under the current law.
    People like you that want to chip away at that right concern me.

    Last edited by peter nap; 12-13-2010 at 08:07 PM.

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    I had no idea it was such a sore spot, and it was included into my request as an attempt to strengthen the request, not cause an issue on the forum.

    Sorry if I don't fully understand, but I've lurked the forum for about a month now, and didn't notice much tension on the subject.

    People like you that want to chip away at that right concern me.
    I feel a little blindsided at the venom. I'm a big fan of OC myself and do so when the windchill isn't in the negatives.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epilogue View Post
    I had no idea it was such a sore spot, and it was included into my request as an attempt to strengthen the request, not cause an issue on the forum.

    Sorry if I don't fully understand, but I've lurked the forum for about a month now, and didn't notice much tension on the subject.



    I feel a little blindsided at the venom. I'm a big fan of OC myself and do so when the windchill isn't in the negatives.
    No venom, just straight talk.
    I have nothing against CC. I had a CC for years and let it expire. I have no plans to get another because I don't feel like I can take a stance against P4P with one.

    My wife has one.

    Most of my friends (Yeah I have one or two) have them. That's not the issue.

    Granting special consideration because of the permit aside from concealing is the issue. It's the backdoor to Gun registration and permits only.

    Many people don't realize the harm they're doing by promoting P4P. Like any other right enumerated in our Constitution, giving a little away just makes us weaker.

    Lord knows, we've given away enough already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    No venom, just straight talk.
    I have nothing against CC. I had a CC for years and let it expire. I have no plans to get another because I don't feel like I can take a stance against P4P with one.

    My wife has one.

    Most of my friends (Yeah I have one or two) have them. That's not the issue.

    Granting special consideration because of the permit aside from concealing is the issue. It's the backdoor to Gun registration and permits only.

    Many people don't realize the harm they're doing by promoting P4P. Like any other right enumerated in our Constitution, giving a little away just makes us weaker.

    Lord knows, we've given away enough already.
    I understand, however, it feels like you're reading more into my intentions than necessary. I'm not looking for a 'perk', I'm looking for permission to possess on on their property and making arguments I hope will help my request. I'm sorry if it bothers you, and I certainly didn't post the request looking for a rights-fight among the forum.

    I'll take this offline so the point becomes moot.

    -Epi

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epilogue View Post
    Because CHP holders are required to show proficiency with a firearm before the application can even begin
    Just a point of clarification - the Code requires that an applicant show competency, not proficiency (there's a difference).
    James Reynolds

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Just a point of clarification - the Code requires that an applicant show competency, not proficiency (there's a difference).
    You are correct, I misspoke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    No venom, just straight talk.
    And this doesn't sit right with me. You call it straight talk, I call it abrasive. If you're looking to help people see your side of the coin, don't bite their head off. I respect the community here at OCDO, and I value the support given and received, but when you jump down the throat of a guy who's got 10 posts under his belt, all you're going to do is piss him off.

    People like you that want to chip away at that right concern me.
    Coming at me like I'm trying to tear down the Constitution with my own two hands? Pardon me as I light Liberty and Freedom on fire as well. Back off.

    Just straight talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epilogue View Post
    And this doesn't sit right with me. You call it straight talk, I call it abrasive. If you're looking to help people see your side of the coin, don't bite their head off. I respect the community here at OCDO, and I value the support given and received, but when you jump down the throat of a guy who's got 10 posts under his belt, all you're going to do is piss him off.



    Coming at me like I'm trying to tear down the Constitution with my own two hands? Pardon me as I light Liberty and Freedom on fire as well. Back off.

    Just straight talk.
    Epilogue,

    Coming from someone who knows from experience.... don't take this thread personal. There are a lot of bullies (you probably just bumped into one of them), but there are a lot of people who listen to everyone and their view points without bias. Feel free to express yourself and many will listen. Of course, there will be those who oppose you. Just do your best to hold your ground, express your viewpoint (backing it with cites is best), and you will be accepted. A few outspoken members don't represent the majority.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 12-14-2010 at 01:34 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Epilogue,

    Coming from someone who knows from experience.... don't take this thread personal. There are a lot of bullies (you probably just bumped into one of them), but there are a lot of people who listen to everyone and their view points without bias. Feel free to express yourself and many will listen. Of course, there will be those who oppose you. Just do your best to hold your ground, express your viewpoint (backing it with cites is best), and you will be accepted. A few bad members don't represent the majority.
    You go "one bridge too far" in defining someone as a "bully" or "bad member" who passionately believes in something and who has already offered a peace making statement.

    Modifying the advice slightly:
    ...there will may be those who oppose you. Just do your best to hold your ground be reasonable and responsible, express your viewpoint +in a civil manner+ (backing it with cites is best), and you will be accepted.

    Also familiarize yourself with our rules. They are intended to smooth out the bumps.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

    Did I say welcome to OCDO? Should have done that first.
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