New St. Joseph OCer with some questions...

Hello everyone! My name is Tyrus and I just recently found out about OC and the legality of it all here in Missouri. I want to start OCing here in St. Joseph, but I wanted to ask a few questions to anyone that could help.

First off, I have read a lot of places that it is legal in St. Joe, but I failed to find the actual print. I looked on the city's website under weapons and it mentions CC, but I didn't see anything about OC. Can anyone provide this, or at least quote from it so I can feel a bit more secure? (I'd like to have the chapter/article handy in case being stopped by an LEO.)

Second, I have a Hi-Point 9mm (no jokes please, I've heard them all...it's never jammed or blew up in my face =P), and was wondering if anyone could recommend a good holster for it. I was actually considering something like the FBI/Swat have, with the little black belts that go around the leg, so the gun hangs lower, more off your leg than your hip. I have no idea what they're called... (I don't wear belts too often, but I guess I'll start if I can't find this lol)

Lastly, has anyone from St. Joe been to the indoor range over by the north shops? I wasn't sure how they operated and was interested in checking it out for the winter months.

Thanks for any answers I get, and hopefully I'll be another proud OCer soon.

I went to:

http://www.jcll.org/research_ordinace.html

and reviewed St. Joseph municipal code and found Chapter 20 (Offenses), Division 2 (Weapons) sections 20-162 and 20-163.

Nowhere within did I see anything concerning Open Carry.

We all know that laws cannot "permit" any action. (or else law books would nesseccarily be thicker than buildings as each and every action that a human being could possibly take, from eating candy apples to changing underwear, would have to be specifically addressed before it would be legal to undertake them)

Since it is impossible for laws to permit lawful actions, we can surmise that they can only "ban" or criminalize unwanted actions.

I see nothing within St. Joseph municipal code banning Open Carry, therefore, it is legal.

I would highly suggest printing a copy of this code and carrying it with you as well as also carrying a digital voice recorder. Because detaining an individual when there is no illegal activity, or lack of reasonable articulable suspicion by an officer is illegal.

Remember that businesses have the upper hand when it comes to property rights. If asked to leave, you must comply immediately, or be tresspassed. Other than that, remember that by OC'ing, you are not breaking the law. Always keep this in mind, and act accordingly. Getting nervous, apologizing, or complying with officers when asked to "cover up" is only reinforcing that their actions are justified when they are not.

Two good phrases to keep in mind when carrying:

"Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?"

Without breaking the law, it is ILLEGAL for officers to detain you. Therefore they MUST answer "YES" when you ask if you are free to go, or else it is considered being "detained".

If you are detained, remember that you cannot talk your way out of an arrest (if you are breaking the law, they MUST arrest you as it is their job to do so, regardless of what you say.), but you CAN talk your way into it. (By talking, youoffer up more to filter for illegal activity) Therefore, by talking to officers, the only possibility is their benefit, and never yours.

Remember, if arrested, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT. Use it. THEY must have reason to arrest you, or else THEY are breaking the law. Do not give them one by apologizing, admitting guilt, or acting consistent with a person who has broken the law. You have not. Make them do their jobs, don't absolve them of failure by giving them a reason to arrest you and providing a way out of their dilemma.

Chakragod,

I have OC'ed a Hi-point 9mm. In my opinion they aren't really large enough to warrant a drop leg holster. I used an inexpensive universal belt holster from a local sports store and it carried quite well. I personally wouldn't wear a drop leg holster. Most sheeple don't understand OC. I have seen that the more casual you wear a firearm the less it seams to upset them. I know it doesn't make since but a tactical leg holster is looked at as kind of "militia" to the sheeple and "mall ninja" to other gun people.

This is not criticism or rules you must follow, just advice and opinion from some one who has some experience in OC and wanting to make your transition to OC as smooth as possible.

Doc

Oh come on, Doc!

I mentioned thinking about a drop leg for winter since OC with a coat isn't practical, and received a sneer from you that was sour enough to remember.

That sneer was almost as bad as the ones I put on when the word "Glock" gets mentioned.

Of course, I didn't say I disagree with you. Drop legs are just a tinge "over the top", but I'm not going to discount a viable method of carry just to kow-tow to public opinion and perception. I'm already bucking the public's sheeplike view of "normal", by OC'ing. While I agree with not causing undue alarm, drop leg rigs are a valid method of carry, therefore, shouldn't be viewed any different than a regular belt rig, or shoulder rig.

Welcome to our forum! There are several of us who OC every day in St. Joe, myself included. We should all meet up for coffee or breakfast and we can go over the in's and out's of St. Joe carry. PM me if you have any questions or wanna swap stories. My name is Bryce!

BTW, Walmart carries a nice "retention" airsoft holster for only $7. Same as MC Sports. It'll do the job until you get a better gun...errr, I mean holster

welcome to ocdo. i wouldnt worry to much about oc here in st.joe 99% of the leo's around here know that open carry is legal,and they wont even bother with you unless they get that man with a gun call.carry on and carry often.
by the way my name is sam,and hey bryce im ready for another get together.breakfast sounds good.

Missouri is doing a meet and greet this weekend .... Hope you guys & gals can make it...

Official time and place for Independence area Missouri OC get together.

Sound off if you will be in attendance. I will be. That's one.


EDIT** By the way I checked the doors on the one here in Blue Springs. No franchise ban on handguns at least. **EDIT

12/11/2010

4:00 pm.

Culver's of Lee's Summit, MO
1701 N.E. Douglas Street
Lee's Summit, MO 64086

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Culver's+of+L ee's+Summit,+MO+1701+N.E.+Douglas+Street++Lee's+Su mmit,+MO+64086&g=1701+Northeast+Douglas+Street,+Le e's+Summit,+MO+64086-4703&ie=UTF8&hq=culver's+of+lee's+summit+mo+1701+n e+douglas+street&hnear=Missouri+64086&ll=38.963947 ,-94.377365&spn=0.1268,0.220757&t=h&z=12&iwloc=A

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate the help.

Superlite27: Ah I see. After I posted that, I kind of thought that's how it was. I will be sure to keep it on me whenever I go out.

Doc: Thanks for the explanation. I guess I'll just pick up one from around here.

Reverend BCal: Sounds good, I'm always up for breakfast assuming I worked the night before (I work graveyard at Terrible's, so I get off at 8am). Thanks for the recommendation on the holster, cheap would be nice for the time being.

Teddybear: I read about that, but I'm not sure if the wife has to work this weekend, otherwise I would be happy to come.

Sam and Tyrus, let's see if we can do breakfast sometime in the next week...before Christmas, for sure. I can look at my schedule and let you all know what days are best. And let's finally try to get Marc out this time, too

Well I had a successful first OC. Although I kind of cheated, I just drove to a drive through lol. I wanted my wife with me my first time in public, just to support me in case something were to happen.

She seems to support the idea of me OCing, but she's still afraid of the gun itself (she's the kind of person that worries an appliance is going blow up on here). I finally bought her a pair of ear muffs and protective glasses as she finally agreed to go to the range with me. Hopefully after handling the gun and seeing that it's safe in the proper care, she'll be more open about it.

chakragod said:

Well I had a successful first OC. Although I kind of cheated, I just drove to a drive through lol. I wanted my wife with me my first time in public, just to support me in case something were to happen.

She seems to support the idea of me OCing, but she's still afraid of the gun itself (she's the kind of person that worries an appliance is going blow up on here). I finally bought her a pair of ear muffs and protective glasses as she finally agreed to go to the range with me. Hopefully after handling the gun and seeing that it's safe in the proper care, she'll be more open about it.

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Well done Sir

Has anyone talked to you about carrying a recording device?

Doc

Yes, I actually think my father has one he doesn't even use, so I can get it from him to carry around. Does it have to be visible if I'm recording an LEO conversation?

I also wanted to ask, can just anyone tell you to leave a business? e.g. A Wal-Mart greeter sees me OCing and says something like, "You can't have that in here, get out!" or would it have to be someone with authority, like a manager?

chakragod said:

Does it have to be visible if I'm recording an LEO conversation?

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No. Missouri is a "one party consent" state. This means that only one party needs to consent to the recording of a conversation. If you are recording a conversation between yourself and an officer, YOU are one of the parties. The officer doesn't need to know.

chakragod said:

I also wanted to ask, can just anyone tell you to leave a business? e.g. A Wal-Mart greeter sees me OCing and says something like, "You can't have that in here, get out!" or would it have to be someone with authority, like a manager?

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I'm not sure of the details, but I believe it is a grey area. I'd bet that, as a representative of Wal-Mart, their request for you to leave would hold up in court if you tried to fight a trespassing charge. This, coupled with the fact that the idea of open carry is NOT to crank people up, but to "normalize the open carry of firearms", is a good enough argument for me to simply leave when asked by any employee. Getting into a row about who can and can't ask you to leave isn't a very good way to endear you to Wal-Mart employees or to anyone witnessing the tiff for that matter. My goal as an OC'er is to appear calm and intelligent. Getting torqued over who has the authority to kick me out of a place isn't exactly what I call calm and intelligent. The point to make is that you're not bothered by these things. Hard to do if you're easily pissed over the status of those who ask you to leave.

I'd simply let them know that I was offended by being asked and walk out. It shows them you aren't the type to get uneccessarily angry, puts the onus of "being an @$$hole" onto them instead of you, and insures that you don't have to participate in an unwanted court appearance for trespassing.

Reverend BCal said:

Sam and Tyrus, let's see if we can do breakfast sometime in the next week...before Christmas, for sure. I can look at my schedule and let you all know what days are best. And let's finally try to get Marc out this time, too

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Bryce, I get out all the time. I just have bad luck when it comes to making any kind of plans in advance as something always comes up. And i dont have a lot of time around the holidays to check in on the forum so im just seeing this lol. Maybe sometime we can all come up with something that can work. I'd love to get to know everyone other than thru forum chat and pics.