Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 44

Thread: UPDATE 4 men thought to be illegally dealing firearms at Western Washington gun shows

  1. #1
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nortonville, KY, USA
    Posts
    4,291

    UPDATE 4 men thought to be illegally dealing firearms at Western Washington gun shows

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/431380_ATF07.html

    <snip>
    Federal agents have seized hundreds of guns in a series of raids against suspected gun dealers, including a retired cop and another man thought to have sold the gun used to kill a Seattle police officer.
    According to recently unsealed court documents, federal agents last month conducted a series of stings against four men thought to be illegally dealing firearms at Western Washington gun shows. Court documents suggest that several of the men were sold hundreds of firearms without reporting the sales to authorities or conducting background checks.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Somewhere over run with mud(s)
    Posts
    791
    And where EXACTLY is the illegal actions that SUPPOSEDLY happened here?

    These gentlemen (from all that has been published thus far) is that these were persons who sold guns to a person who WAS a WAC member and had passed a background check. They were following PROPER procedure for PRIVATE transactions...What the hell is the damn problem here????!!!!!?????!!!!????!!!
    "And shepherds we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
    Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
    So we shall flow a river forth to Thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
    E nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti."


    "If the rest of the world says: 'War,' I can only say: 'Very well. I do not want war, but no one, however peaceable, can live in peace if his neighbor intends to force a quarrel.'" - Adolf Hitler...

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    123
    And where EXACTLY is the illegal actions that SUPPOSEDLY happened here?
    Did you read the news article?

    If one is to be a gun owner in Washington state, and one chooses to sell any of his (or her) legally purchased firearms via a private sale in this state, it behooves one to actually know the laws.

    Knowingly selling guns to a person in the "prohibited persons" class, i.e., convicted felons, persons ineligible due to DV convictions (even misdemeanors) thanks to the Lautenberg Act, etc., is plain STUPID and sets our cause back immeasurably. Those're exactly the illegal actions some of the numbskulls (allegedly) performed.

    Deciding that one can make some nice coin selling lots of guns, without an FFL, is plain STUPID as well ... and guaranteed to catch the attention of the BATFE. Doesn't look as though it took very long for the feds to target the individuals that are the subject of the news story.

  4. #4
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    thanx for splitting my thread,,,

    the original thread,
    What does, a dog, no knock, WAC, and ATF, have in common?

    the story of confirmation that massivedesign found in the seattle PI

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/431380_ATF07.html
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  5. #5
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    And where EXACTLY is the illegal actions that SUPPOSEDLY happened here?

    These gentlemen (from all that has been published thus far) is that these were persons who sold guns to a person who WAS a WAC member and had passed a background check. They were following PROPER procedure for PRIVATE transactions...What the hell is the damn problem here????!!!!!?????!!!!????!!!
    Reading the article and seems to be pretty clear, it was not a personal collection but buy and sell for profit and thus fitting into being required to have a FFL and requirements thereof.

    Do you really think there is nothing wrong in what is presented here?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  6. #6
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    Bremerton Detective Alloway, the Go-To Guy for Grow Ops, Retires After 32 Years

    Seems he had quite a career in law enforcement and seems not to be one of the ones selling to illegal buyers nor disregard for who the firearms hands they ended up in.
    Last edited by BigDave; 12-08-2010 at 05:59 AM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  7. #7
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,953
    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    And where EXACTLY is the illegal actions that SUPPOSEDLY happened here?

    These gentlemen (from all that has been published thus far) is that these were persons who sold guns to a person who WAS a WAC member and had passed a background check. They were following PROPER procedure for PRIVATE transactions...What the hell is the damn problem here????!!!!!?????!!!!????!!!
    Read the article. One of the individuals had an FFL (through a business he owned) and was transferring weapons from his FFL to his private collection. Once he does this he can't sell them for one year. He was selling them as quickly as the next day. Apparently the only reason was to avoid the paperwork he would have to complete if they went through his FFL. May have been following WAC rules but he broke Federal Regulations governing FFL's. THAT is the problem for him.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  8. #8
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nortonville, KY, USA
    Posts
    4,291
    some stats I found....

    engaging in the business of dealing in firearms without a license (five years maximum)
    felon in possession of a firearm and/or ammunition (10 years maximum)
    sale of a firearm to a prohibited person (10 years maximum)

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wa, ,
    Posts
    2,769
    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    some stats I found....

    engaging in the business of dealing in firearms without a license (five years maximum)
    felon in possession of a firearm and/or ammunition (10 years maximum)
    sale of a firearm to a prohibited person (10 years maximum)
    Those terms are per count, but may/can be combined

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Edge of the woods
    Posts
    112
    In case anyone missed the link to the second article, here's kind of an important section of it. Ignoring grammatical errors, I think it says a lot about why one was busted.

    "The agent told Devenny who had a friend who wanted a gun but was told he could only buy a bow or black powder rifle because he of a domestic violence conviction, the complaint continued. Devenny allegedly offered that the undercover agent's friend could instead "buy (a gun) from somebody like me that don't give a (expletive)."

    "What I don't know I don't care about," Devenny told the undercover agent, according to the criminal complaint. "It's don't ask don't tell. If I don't know then there's nothing wrong with it." "

  11. #11
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    So let them continue enforcing gun laws that are on the books... and not push for more anti-gun, anti-gun show laws.

    This investigation is proof that when the actually do their job, then under current laws the issue is addressed (potential illegal gun sales at gun shows).

  12. #12
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    2,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    So let them continue enforcing gun laws that are on the books... and not push for more anti-gun, anti-gun show laws.

    This investigation is proof that when the actually do their job, then under current laws the issue is addressed (potential illegal gun sales at gun shows).
    +1

    Exactly! The system and laws already in place worked. Id say a nice 25+ year sentence works very well as a deterrent as long as its well advertise to those who might think about following in these guys footsteps.

    Doesn't sound like anything else needs to be done. There are always going to be idiots who push the envelope and roll the dice in the hope of getting away with it, but 4 people does not a widespread problem make.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Tacoma, WA, ,
    Posts
    886
    Anybody wanna bet that the names of these 4 people have all been found on an ATF form 3310.4 (Report of Multiple Handgun Sales or other disposition) at one time or another???

    -G20

  14. #14
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    So let them continue enforcing gun laws that are on the books... and not push for more anti-gun, anti-gun show laws.

    This investigation is proof that when the actually do their job, then under current laws the issue is addressed (potential illegal gun sales at gun shows).
    Except for the fact that at least two of those arrested were conducting illegal business AT gun shows. One was using the "Don't ask, Don't tell" smokescreen and another was selling weapons from his FFL business as if they were from his "private collection".

    Actions such as these are what's fueling the "Close the Gun Show Loophole" frenzy among the gun control crowd. Either the Gun Show managers are lax in enforcing their rules or these individuals were able to hide their activities enough to keep them from getting kicked out of the show(s).

    I agree that the existing laws should be enforced but with so called "liberty minded gun owners" disregarding the law for financial gain, expect unwanted laws to be added because of them.

    If you look at the reason most regulations and laws are in existence, you'll notice a common thread. People are greedy and don't use common sense.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  15. #15
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Except for the fact that at least two of those arrested were conducting illegal business AT gun shows. One was using the "Don't ask, Don't tell" smokescreen and another was selling weapons from his FFL business as if they were from his "private collection".

    Actions such as these are what's fueling the "Close the Gun Show Loophole" frenzy among the gun control crowd. Either the Gun Show managers are lax in enforcing their rules or these individuals were able to hide their activities enough to keep them from getting kicked out of the show(s).
    "Alleged" not fact. Innocent until proven guilty in a court, not merely by a LEO investigation or arrest (note that some 'suspects' haven't even been arrested... yet).

    Yes, some idiots broke the law. Police (ATF) investigated, and some suspects were interviewed and some arrested. Those suspects will have the chance to defend themselves in court.

    The system works.

    Police should work harder with available tools, rather than continually demanding that citizens lose more freedom.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wa, ,
    Posts
    2,769
    As some of you know, I am a retired Fed Investigator, and I do still have some contacts.

    OK, just a few FACTS, from a person who knows 3 of them personally for several years.
    1. One individual who will remain nameless for the time being, did have a machine gun. Now, let's sweparate the letter of the law from the spirit of the law. The "Machine gun" is really a machine gun. under the letter of the law it is illegal at the time. Under the spirit of the law, the agents have some discretion as to how they handle it. FACT...the machine gun was a rusted, inoperative, unable to be brought back into servicable condition hulk from a sunken ship.
    2. Roy Alloway, has not been a partner in Renegade guns for the last 3 years, when his partner bought him out. He is no longer on the business license, but his name is on the FFL until it is renewed. I have personally witnessed Roy tell people he would not sell to them with out proper ID. One stated "I am a resident of WA, but do not have ID. Roy said no, get out of here. Same guy said "I'll give you $100 more if you sell me the gun. Roy again said get the hell out of here. Next was asked "If I give you my phone number we can meet up in the parking lot and I will buy it" Roy said get out of here, I'm calling security.

    3. The second person from Bremerton, I know but will not comment on at the present time.

    When all the facts come to light, I am fairly certain the case against Roy will be dropped.
    The Machine gun, well under the letter of the law he was wrong. let's just hope the US atty and judge use alittle common sense(?)

    Give a chance for all the things to come to light and then and ONLY then make your judgement on the facts as known not as guessed by the media.

  17. #17
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  18. #18
    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    University Place, Washington, USA
    Posts
    705
    Doc, from your description of the "machine gun" it sounds like the folks pursuing a case there would still consider it a "machine gun" if it were melted down into a cast pig.

    Once it is nothing but a non-restorable lump of rusted metal it really should not be considered a "machine gun", even if the general shape is recognizable as having at one time been a "machine gun."

    Heck, the one you describe doesn't even sound like it would meet the definition of a gun or firearm...
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lakewood, WA
    Posts
    1,001
    Does anyone know if the definition of "machine gun" includes any terms such as "capable" or anything of the like? Because of the definition is something along the lines of a gun capable of firing more than one round per trigger pull, then it sounds like the rusted out "machine gun" would no longer be considered a machine gun since it is not capable of firing ANY rounds per trigger pull. Hell, from the sound of it, pulling the trigger would break it off!
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

    Shooters before hooters.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,227
    Quote Originally Posted by .45ACPaddy View Post
    Does anyone know if the definition of "machine gun" includes any terms such as "capable" or anything of the like? Because of the definition is something along the lines of a gun capable of firing more than one round per trigger pull, then it sounds like the rusted out "machine gun" would no longer be considered a machine gun since it is not capable of firing ANY rounds per trigger pull. Hell, from the sound of it, pulling the trigger would break it off!
    AFAIk there is a technically correct way of rendering it into a unrestorable condition. At least I always seem them destroyed in the same fashion when imported as kits.

    It involves detroying the receiver.

    It looks like this:


    It is why there used to be so many AK kits available:
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 12-10-2010 at 04:40 AM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    AFAIk there is a technically correct way of rendering it into a unrestorable condition. At least I always seem them destroyed in the same fashion when imported as kits.

    It involves detroying the receiver.
    The "ATF" publishes information on the accepted methods of destroying a machine gun. From their site:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...struction.html

    Approved destruction methods always call for destruction of the SAME part starting with the receiver. Also requires specific "cuts" with a cutting torch at specified areas to insure it is never welded together again in an operable condition. When the Anniston Army Depot "Demil's" any full auto weapons, not only the receiver is destroyed but key parts from fire control groups as well.

    The problem with "looking only at the intent" when it comes to a rusty old relic, the precedent gets set. The next time the "relic" may be a little less rusty. Eventually, it may only have a little rust on it. Pretty soon, the law becomes unenforceable because all of the "slack" that was cut previously. I believe that the government will ask that the letter of the law be followed. The weapon could have been properly deactivated for display and there would have been no issue, even with the rust.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SW Idaho
    Posts
    1,552
    For all of you who are saying "we need to enforce the laws we have now," I would encourage you to re-read the Second Amendment. Just what, exactly, do you think "shall not be infringed" means.

    ALL laws related to firearms possession, ownership, use, transfer, sale, etc. are prima facie unconstitutional. Selling a firearm should no more be regulated by the government than selling an old appliance at a garage sale. It is property, to be disposed of according to the wishes of its owner, and no other.

    It really disturbs me to see people who claim to be pro-2A jumping on the "punishment" bandwagon against a couple of guys who committed no genuine crime against persons or property. Disobeying unconstitutional laws is to be celebrated, not disdained.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Everett, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,339
    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    For all of you who are saying "we need to enforce the laws we have now," I would encourage you to re-read the Second Amendment. Just what, exactly, do you think "shall not be infringed" means.

    ALL laws related to firearms possession, ownership, use, transfer, sale, etc. are prima facie unconstitutional. Selling a firearm should no more be regulated by the government than selling an old appliance at a garage sale. It is property, to be disposed of according to the wishes of its owner, and no other.

    It really disturbs me to see people who claim to be pro-2A jumping on the "punishment" bandwagon against a couple of guys who committed no genuine crime against persons or property. Disobeying unconstitutional laws is to be celebrated, not disdained.
    Uhhhhh...... Have you read any SCOTUS cases recently?
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    SW Idaho
    Posts
    1,552
    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Uhhhhh...... Have you read any SCOTUS cases recently?

    9 idiots who wear dresses to work can't change the black-letter text of the Constitution, which plainly prohibits the federal government from infringing the right. A state could ban guns, as well as do many other idiotic things that are prohibited for the federal government, as Madison pointed out, like establishing an official religion.

    I understand that the ideal of the Constitution and the regime that we currently live under are two different things, but we should not throw our moral support behind the fed. gov.'s persecution of people who have DONE NOTHING WRONG under a natural law perspective.

    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: LEO Bashing

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    123
    Disobeying unconstitutional laws is to be celebrated, not disdained.
    Yep, lots of us in Washington celebrating the arrest of a guy who apparently knew, yet did not care, that he was selling firearms to convicted felons, persons ineligible to own guns due to domestic violence convictions, etc. -- and we're all celebrating the linking of our excellent organization, Washington Arms Collectors, to numerous alleged violations of federal laws that will, in all likelihood, draw more scrutiny to all WA law-abiding gun owners, lead to attempts to shut down gunshows and additional regulation and end up having private sales banned for good here ...

    Get real.

    Of course, that's the difference between the "peace officers" we used to have in this country, and the cancerous "law enforcement officers" who afflict the national body today.
    Sigh. Guess it was only a matter of time before someone started blaming cops when the real issue is citizens that should know better not obeying the law ...
    Last edited by Bo; 12-10-2010 at 02:18 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •